Burial interview in today's Guardian

[deamonds]

to elgato and maybe mos dan, sorry if i've offended your delicate sensibilities but last time i checked, this was a largely capitalist and commodified world we live in (especially in the west) and whether you like to "accept" or "believe" that, at then end of the day art and music is in fact a commodity.

maybe if the "underground" heads realized that, then they'd know that music does in fact have value and illegal downloading and such is destroying an artist/musician's ability to continue making art and music. it's romantic to think economics has no bearing on art/music, but that's a bit naive and short sighted isn't it?

that said, i really doubt burial operates under some preconceived and calculated marketing scheme, but as somebody else mentioned. . .his success has not been entirely dependent on just the "music." he's the quintessential underground hero that exemplifies some of the original ethics of the "rave" scene: anonymity, mystery, low-tech DIY (burial only uses sound forge and claims he doesn't know much about production!), working against the "establishment," exclusion from and derision of a larger more corrupt/conservative mainstream society, etc.

interestingly enough the "music" itself is very representational of that nostalgic feeling for simpler, nobler times of yesteryear with all the ghostly rave horn samples, vocals, mantasms etc. we've all bought into it on a variety of levels, whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not. it's genius. good for burial, and much thanks to the press for stoking up the flames of hype. great article mos dan!

Agree whole heartedly, quite a bleak outlook on music (no pun towards burials music intended) but it is very sadly a commodity...
Great interview all the same!!!

(id still love to know who he is tho! lol....just kidding burial, keep it up mate!)

[pete_bubonic]

to elgato and maybe mos dan, sorry if i've offended your delicate sensibilities but last time i checked, this was a largely capitalist and commodified world we live in (especially in the west) and whether you like to "accept" or "believe" that, at then end of the day art and music is in fact a commodity.

maybe if the "underground" heads realized that, then they'd know that music does in fact have value and illegal downloading and such is destroying an artist/musician's ability to continue making art and music. it's romantic to think economics has no bearing on art/music, but that's a bit naive and short sighted isn't it?

that said, i really doubt burial operates under some preconceived and calculated marketing scheme, but as somebody else mentioned. . .his success has not been entirely dependent on just the "music."

Just a couple of things.

Everyone I know, I mean everyone, that makes the music that we are into, makes music. Not to sell, not to even bump in clubs, but for the sheer fun of making music. If other people like it and pay money for it then we are over the fucking moon. But to say the music is a commodity is more a reflection on your outlook on this 'underground' scene you talk about. I want brehs to get thier dues, don't me wrong. But they don't make a commodity, they make art. People like you turn it into a commodity.

Secondly, I couldn't care less if Burial's face was launching a new Asda brand of Baked Beans. His music is inspirational, regardless of the hype or pr portrayal or his own shyness.

When you lose the ability to appreciate music for what it is rather than the pr campaign or how many units it's shifted, you lost the point.

[tone.def]

[quote="pete bubonic"][quote="tone.def"]to elgato and maybe mos dan, sorry if i've offended your delicate sensibilities but last time i checked, this was a largely capitalist and commodified world we live in (especially in the west) and whether you like to "accept" or "believe" that, at then end of the day art and music is in fact a commodity.

maybe if the "underground" heads realized that, then they'd know that music does in fact have value and illegal downloading and such is destroying an artist/musician's ability to continue making art and music. it's romantic to think economics has no bearing on art/music, but that's a bit naive and short sighted isn't it?

that said, i really doubt burial operates under some preconceived and calculated marketing scheme, but as somebody else mentioned. . .his success has not been entirely dependent on just the "music." [/quote]

Just a couple of things.

Everyone I know, I mean everyone, that makes the music that we are into, makes music. Not to sell, not to even bump in clubs, but for the sheer fun of making music. If other people like it and pay money for it then we are over the fucking moon. But to say the music is a commodity is more a reflection on your outlook on this 'underground' scene you talk about. I want brehs to get thier dues, don't me wrong. But they don't make a commodity, they make art. People like you turn it into a commodity.

Secondly, I couldn't care less if Burial's face was launching a new Asda brand of Baked Beans. His music is inspirational, regardless of the hype or pr portrayal or his own shyness.

When you lose the ability to appreciate music for what it is rather than the pr campaign or how many units it's shifted, you lost the point.[/quote]

ok, ignore reality if you must. i have no doubt that "everyone" you know makes the music purely for the fun of it, however once they put it out there (ie. in the market whether it be a shop, club, or your living room) in any form then it becomes a commodity to be consumed (i'm sorry, "enjoyed") by an audience (whether it be for monetary gain, personal satisfaction, social wellbeing, credibility, ego etc.).

maybe burial does it purely for the fun of it too, but why sell it on CD at all then? why promote it? why do interviews with the mainstream press? get my point? too late, it's already a commodity! blame kode9 and hyperdub if you must!

why do the "underground headz" refuse to accept that art can and usually becomes a commodity? it doesn't mean art loses its identity as "art." it doesn't mean it becomes any less "art," it just means that it is now art for sale. "art" and "commodity" are not mutually exclusive, and I can't help but think it's really quaint if not totally naive to think otherwise. well, come to think of it, the "underground" has always been a bit quaint and naive. i guess that's the fun of it.

by the way, i love and appreciate music so much i've made it my life and livelihood. trust me, i haven't lost the point.

[elgato]

ok, ignore reality if you must. i have no doubt that "everyone" you know makes the music purely for the fun of it, however once they put it out there (ie. in the market whether it be a shop, club, or your living room) in any form then it becomes a commodity to be consumed (i'm sorry, "enjoyed") by an audience (whether it be for monetary gain, personal satisfaction, social wellbeing, credibility, ego etc.).

why do the "underground headz" refuse to accept that art can and usually becomes a commodity?

What is the 'reality' of social dynamics? Is it not the meeting point of the perception of all those involved? Thus presenting the opportunity for various different 'realities'? I do not deny that most people do see it as a commodity, or (of course) that it can be a commodity. What i dispute is that it must be a 'commodity' as a 'fact'. What I wanted to point out was the extent to which the language and ideology of market capitalism has pervaded in this day - that so few are able or willing to conceive of relationships and dynamics in any other way than as defined by dominant economic belief, even in what should be one of the principal bastions of counter-culture

[tone.def]

[quote="elgato"][quote="tone.def"]ok, ignore reality if you must. i have no doubt that "everyone" you know makes the music purely for the fun of it, however once they put it out there (ie. in the market whether it be a shop, club, or your living room) in any form then it becomes a commodity to be consumed (i'm sorry, "enjoyed") by an audience (whether it be for monetary gain, personal satisfaction, social wellbeing, credibility, ego etc.).[/quote]

[quote="tone.def"]why do the "underground headz" refuse to accept that art can and usually becomes a commodity?[/quote]

What is the 'reality' of social dynamics? Is it not the meeting point of the perception of all those involved? Thus presenting the opportunity for various different 'realities'? I do not deny that most people do see it as a commodity, or (of course) that it [i]can[/i] be a commodity. What i dispute is that it [i]must[/i] be a 'commodity' as a [i]'fact'[/i]. What I wanted to point out was the extent to which the language and ideology of market capitalism has pervaded in this day - that so few are able or willing to conceive of relationships and dynamics in any other way than as defined by dominant economic belief, even in what should be one of the principal bastions of counter-culture[/quote]

you're right, "art" isn't always a "commodity" and doesn't have to be; just the same as "art" can be a "commodity" and often is, or becomes it. are you (or anyone else) denying that burial's music/albums/EPs are both art and a commodity? i think somebody earlier was denying it. i argue they most certainly are both, and that's not a bad thing.

[pete_bubonic]

ok, ignore reality if you must. i have no doubt that "everyone" you know makes the music purely for the fun of it, however once they put it out there (ie. in the market whether it be a shop, club, or your living room) in any form then it becomes a commodity to be consumed (i'm sorry, "enjoyed") by an audience (whether it be for monetary gain, personal satisfaction, social wellbeing, credibility, ego etc.).

why do the "underground headz" refuse to accept that art can and usually becomes a commodity?

What is the 'reality' of social dynamics? Is it not the meeting point of the perception of all those involved? Thus presenting the opportunity for various different 'realities'? I do not deny that most people do see it as a commodity, or (of course) that it can be a commodity. What i dispute is that it must be a 'commodity' as a 'fact'. What I wanted to point out was the extent to which the language and ideology of market capitalism has pervaded in this day - that so few are able or willing to conceive of relationships and dynamics in any other way than as defined by dominant economic belief, even in what should be one of the principal bastions of counter-culture

you're right, "art" isn't always a "commodity" and doesn't have to be; just the same as "art" can be a "commodity" and often is, or becomes it. are you (or anyone else) denying that burial's music/albums/EPs are both art and a commodity? i think somebody earlier was denying it. i argue they most certainly are both, and that's not a bad thing.

My argument is not that it doesn't become a commodity, as soon as someone looks to put a tune into the public, it does become a commodity and is viewed as one. But at the point of creation, at the point of writing, that tune is a personal entity. Something the artist/s puts their heart and soul into, at that point it is certainly not a commodity. It is art in it's purest sense. When DMZ did tunes like Chamber or Pinch did tunes like Qawalli, I doubt they really gave a flying fuck if it would sell. That I think is what the point of Underground music is.

Maybe you're right, you and your capitalist buddies. Maybe these stalwarts of the scene only make tunes to shift units. But on the other hand, people I know and admire from my local scene like Gatekeeper, Peverelist, Atki2, Headhunter etc, make tunes because they love making tunes.

You put across your original argument to get past El Gato's 'delicate sensibilities' and in your rush to prove him wrong, maybe you worded your argument wrong. The very essence of underground is the passion for the music, not the units it shifts. If you're producer mates are more concerned with units rather than the journey of making music or capturing a moment, a story, a vibe in music, then they need to move on from underground genres.

[masstronaut]

The very essence of underground is the passion for the music, not the units it shifts. If you're producer mates are more concerned with units rather than the journey of making music or capturing a moment, a story, a vibe in music, then they need to move on from underground genres.

And that's exactly why it's so good for someone like Burial to keep the music away from social pressures as much as possible.

I've known people who make production line tunes to fit a template and frankly they're not even making music in my opinion.

[stanton]

to elgato and maybe mos dan, sorry if i've offended your delicate sensibilities but last time i checked, this was a largely capitalist and commodified world we live in (especially in the west) and whether you like to "accept" or "believe" that, at then end of the day art and music is in fact a commodity.

maybe if the "underground" heads realized that, then they'd know that music does in fact have value and illegal downloading and such is destroying an artist/musician's ability to continue making art and music. it's romantic to think economics has no bearing on art/music, but that's a bit naive and short sighted isn't it?

The fact that we live in a Capitalist society doesn't mean that everything within that society is necessarily some form of commodity to be traded. The reason that people in this post have reacted so negatively to your opinions is because they reveal a rather crass and unpleasant personal view point on your part. To say that all artistic expression is in fact commodity is really quite wrong. Because prostitution exists doesn't necessarily mean that all sexual encounters are in some way trading, most are expressions of desire and affection. This is what is important about them and this is what is important about artistic expression also. You may view yourself as a commodity to be bought or sold but not everything or everyone is born of market forces.

If we are to believe what Burial says about his music (and we have no reason not to), the first album was a collection of personal compositions created over six years with no real intention of release and their subsequent release and warm reception (to put it very mildly) was highly unexpected. It is this very situation that created this collection of music, it's complete dissociation from the musical marketplace.

[tone.def]

ok everybody, breath. my original argument was with seckle's first comment, and frankly i'm not trying to prove or convince anybody of anything (at least not 5 thread pages later, jeez). let's get the record straight though. i agree with most of you so far in that i believe a true artist's drive to create art is not usually motivated by commercial interests, however a life in art and music typically means that one has to consider that their art may in fact become a "product."

i think burial is definitely a true artist and musician whose motivations are far from commercial success, but i guarantee you that kode9 and those who guide and operate the release of his music think about it at least a little bit. anybody who doesn't think the "underground" operates under premeditated and calculated means is fooling themselves. sorry to sound blunt, crass, or unpleasant (?), but these aren't simply "opinions" rather observations based on reality.

[nine]

these aren't simply "opinions" rather observations based on reality.

[relaks]

[nine]

- - - - - -

[RubiconMan]

i like listening to burial.

[showguns]

i hope burial sells 80,000 copies.

[blackdown]

- - - - - -

It's all chips.

[efa]

Right I just scrolled up caught a few words and decided I'm not gonna read this thread, all I'm saying is...

"It's more about when you come back from being out somewhere; in a minicab or a night bus, or with someone, or walking home across London late at night, dreamlike, and you've still got the music kind of echoing in you, in your bloodstream, but with real life trying to get in the way. I want it to be like a little sanctuary. It's like that 24-hour stand selling tea on a rainy night, glowing in the dark. It's pretty simple."

"I'll do the hi-tech ultra-darkside album next time."

Yes blud!

[clarkycatdealer]

tone.def sounds like a fascist version of jacques attali

[pete_bubonic]

but these aren't simply "opinions" rather observations based on reality.

If you said this line before, none of us would have bothered arguing, you obviously have a very predefined and rigid belief in what is actually going on. Even if people actually involved disagree. But hey you must be right, you're the only on without an 'opinion' in this thread.

[jaggi]

http://music.guardian.co.uk/urban/story ... 11,00.html

inspiringly eccentric and romantic...

thanks for sharing.

[John Locke]

this thread started off interesting but got kind dull now...

i think the problem is that ToneDef is not saying what people WANT 2hear. However, IMO, what he is saying is exactly how it IS, and what everyone else is doing is arguing how it SHOULD be. Dont confuse these 2 things.

I would love ToneDef 2b wrong (not cos i got anyhting against u, in fact from yr posts I'd gather u'd also prefer it if u were wrong), but years of battling 2 keep my integrity have tought me that everything he's saying is right. All else is naive.

This doesnt mean u got to sell out. doesn't mean yr motivation 4 producing should be money. doesn't mean that only shit that sells has value. or any of the other incorrect interpretations of ToneDef's argument i seen on here. It simple means we got to face how the world currently works, and accept it. whether we like it or not.

do your thing. ignore the commercial world. that aint a problem. but make sure u r clear on how the world functions all the same. saves a lot of stupid battles, struggle and disappointment in the long run. and perhaps might even mean u can do what u want and still pay the rent at the end of the month.

perhaps

I'm as anti capitalist as any balaclaved G8 protestor (tho hopefully a little more clued up and less about just getting angry), so dont misunderstand this post as being in defense of capitalism...I'm just saying that WISHING something were not true doesnt MAKE it not true. get me?