Dubstep joins DnB down a dead end alley

joe muggs · Post by **joe muggs** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:31 pm

Fucking applause to that Overcast. Big fucking applause. Bollocks to micro-scene protectionism and "is/isn't the moment passed?" nonsense. Positive thinking like you've just so eloquently put into words is what keeps music moving forward, NOT "I was there first" "this or that sound is bad" sniping. And even more importantly, whatever happens to dubstep, everyone involved should be able to look out to its place within the wider context of soundsystem / bass / electronic / instrumental / club / dance music and what influence it can have. I don't want to sound like some hippie or something but bring on the positive thinking!!

ocr · Post by **ocr** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:33 pm

hallelujah....safe. hey Overcast man can you stick around for a bit? Thankyou for your time and comments. Good stuff.

horse · Post by **horse** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:33 pm

dig harder for longer and you'll find the gems
and they'll be so much sweeter when you find them

sometimes i have to sit and be quiet for a few moments after hearing some music (not just dubstep) because its just too beautiful, too intense, too whatever. just too much of a quality, that i have to have some silence because any sound might taint the moment.

nmezee · Post by **nmezee** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:48 pm

i agree dig dig and dig more to find what is good to you. it is a developing thing and it has moved fast and as the sound reaches new people and new producers and new djs it will only get bigger. but the sound has to be tested. as far as wobble i cant relate cause i dont subscribe to an extent.

pk- · Post by **pk-** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:53 pm

i'm not really sure what you're saying about dubstep in your first post, could you clarify it?

you seem to be saying that dubstep is heading towards the same formulaic stagnation that swamped dnb, but that you're ok with that and in fact dubstep is great?

saying

its all good, yes its happening again with our eyes wide open but that’s cool, it’s the way of things

after saying

The time arrived in dubstep when I would start having to wade through more and more fodder to pluck out the skull disco 12”, or the Martyn remix, the Kode 9 track just standing high over every other wobbly piece of formulaic shite in the weeks releases.

is what's throwing me, i think.

then again i'm not the sharpest tool in the box

sines · Post by **sines** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:53 pm

that is the problem nowadays is that people arent digging "deep" enough to find these tunes.

shonky · Post by **shonky** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:54 pm

I think Seckle's post from a while back regarding labels putting out low quality tunes was quite good, why make a bad copy of something that's already been done. Be nice to hear labels put out some more experimental sounds rather than Groundhog dubs. Something well produced that isn't mining the same furrow stick out like a diamond in the dirt

horse · Post by **horse** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:56 pm

i guess some people want to be handed things on a plate and dont want to have to search for themselves so naturally they dont hear the good stuff and therefore base their opinions on the 90% formulaic & generic stuff clogging up the airwaves.

which is a damned shame

shonky · Post by **shonky** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:14 am

horse wrote:i guess some people want to be handed things on a plate and dont want to have to search for themselves so naturally they dont hear the good stuff and therefore base their opinions on the 90% formulaic & generic stuff clogging up the airwaves.

which is a damned shame

Not everyone has the time to go through every dub posted though do they, and if a lot of them aren't to taste it can be disheartening. I used to spend about an hour a day going through the dub section when there were about 3000 members, now it seems that there are loads of tunes getting posted each day, and I remember some point listening last year and thinking that there was far too much familiarity in what I was hearing and kind of stopped altogether. A lot of what people are making is not really stuff I'm into, which is no disrespect to them or their production skills, which are on the whole very good, just not my tastes. It can make it a chore rather than a pleasure.

It's a question of time - I have to shop and cook food, try and fit in some sort of a social life, practise my mixing, produce tunes and various other time constraints. I don't live and breathe dubstep 24/7. This week I've spent about 18 hours listening to Sub and Streamizm. Plus of course endless shit chatting up here

It's all very well saying dig a bit deeper, but it would also help if producers gave a bit of a hint as to what the tune sounded like in the post (techno, ragga, breakstep, whatever). I know you've done a lot of good work, but not everyone gets the opportunity.

If you add in interest in other musics too, you either need to be a full time label boss or dj, have a very nice workplace that allows you to listen to music all day, or be unemployed to have time to go through every thing that's getting produced.

And sometimes I like a bit of quiet too.

overcast radio · Post by **overcast radio** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:22 am

Thanks for that everyone. I felt that way in 2002 when I discovered Boards Of Canada. I thought I was surely in some secret society of 30-somethings who absolutely felt they heard this music years ago, in the womb.

Other groups that have triggered almost Hellenic music wars: Public Enemy, Squarepusher, My Bloody Valentine, Sonic Youth, Bjork/Matmos, Forss/Sonar Kollectiv, Jaga/Nils/Norwegian nu-jazz, Funkstorung, every fucking Wiretapper CD I haven't even gone over yet because there's so much great music out there. Depends on your month or half-year, right? I like Silversun Pickups, Peter Bjorn and John, Radiohead but I'm just not feeling rock lately. Fuck. I listened to nothing but Miles Davis for about six months of 2003.

People that trainspot the genres to death (that aren't aspiring musicologists) via negative nit-picking, scenefucking...well, they just maybe have nothing better to do? People knock shit b/c they're insecure 9 out of 10.

Art is like potatoes. As soon as they're not underground they're sorted, scrubbed, sold, bagged, named, boiled, cut, diced, French Fried, and eaten up fast. Who thinks music is safe from consumerism, capitalism, and spoilage? Life itself is not sacred in this world. Why would dubstep be? Just make honest music, learn more, find a voice, and brand it. Hopefully the rest follows. Your scene will die. Time for Plan B. Tech-based genres (like all electronic) will always die. Getting pissed about dubstep maybe not being bleeding edge in a few minutes is like getting nostalgic for VHS or dial-up. Imagine?

"Fuck these Firewire dicks, we used to be SCSI, man!"

Music is revolutionary, and that takes time, scenes to rise and fall, apathy, tech-advances, and a lot of forgetable, generic tunes. Mozart was the same way, and then Beethoven came and fucking destroyed.

Hit me at myspace.

joe muggs · Post by **joe muggs** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:26 am

Shonky wrote: If you add in interest in other musics too, you either need to be a full time label boss or dj, have a very nice workplace that allows you to listen to music all day, or be unemployed to have time to go through every thing that's getting produced.

Or be a journo

Although even though I work at home and listen to music all day every day I don't have a hope in hell of keeping up with everything that's happening - after all I have to stay in touch with dozens of other genres: I wouldn't make much of a living only writing about dubstep! What I have found, though, is that people who make the effort to send me their stuff tend to be the more passionate and original artists, so there's already a little bit of a quality control filter there. Maybe the fact that I am that fortunate colours my positive viewpoint....

horse · Post by **horse** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:28 am

Shonky wrote:
Not everyone has the time to go through every dub...unemployed to have time to go through every thing that's getting produced.

i completely agree
i too stopped checking 80% of the posts due to the amount of substandard genericism in the dub section. and yes time and life get in the way when it comes to searching out good quality music.
i was generalising to a degree, if you sign upto a board like this you must be pretty serious about music, i shoulda been clearer i guess. i was referring to the everyday "top 40" listeners

joe muggs · Post by **joe muggs** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:31 am

Anyway, what's wrong with being stuck down a dead end alley. Dead end alleys are where most of my early sexual experiences seemed to take place

shonky · Post by **shonky** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:32 am

Yeah, it would be nice if someone wrote "Substandard Generic Plodder" next to the track title

Seriously Horse, last time I checked that section, think you'd writtten something in most of the threads I looked at - good service you did there and seemed well appreciated too. Big ups

horse · Post by **horse** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:36 am

Shonky wrote:Yeah, it would be nice if someone wrote "Substandard Generic Plodder" next to the track title

Seriously Horse, last time I checked that section, think you'd writtten something in most of the threads I looked at - good service you did there and seemed well appreciated too. Big ups

i think if i like a track enough to post a reply then something more involved than "big tune! 320?" is only polite

altho i comment less and less these days unfortunately. there is a lot of filler in there

pete_bubonic · Post by **pete_bubonic** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:50 am

ocr wrote:No-one's saying "where's the love for the deeper stuff"
No-one's saying "anti wobble"
No-one's whingeing "i cant find any good dubstep at the mo"

My bank account starts haemorrhaging cash everytime i look at BoomKat or Juno or whatever, there is SO much good stuff out there it HURTS, and its showing no signs of letting up!!

I dont allow myself to look at these sites some days!!!

I just wanted to get the thoughts of those who have similar musical backgrounds to myself on parralels between the way this music is headed and the way DnB headed off in the past. But that all got lost somewhere.

If one of these threads pops up every week then what does that tell you? Its pertinent and its on peoples minds and they want to discuss it, and why not? isn't that what forums are FOR?

Thats all, please, please, read the thread before jumping down peoples throats

Okay, fair enough to be honest. I must admit the original post striked me somewhat of th classic internet 'things ain't what they used to be' syndrome. Which I honestly have related to with a lot of the way dnb have moved.

I obviously misread:

I remember years back the weeks DnB releases would hit, and i was fortunate to have a journalist friend writing for Wax/Mixmag/Knowledge, and i would wade through the review copies with him, taking home several quality bits each week that I’d still play now nearly a decade on.

But as time went on in DnB I’d be staring at what Dev Paradox describes as a “load of old wobble bollocks”. And perhaps pluck one solid bit of thoughtfully produced music made without constraints or conditions out of the quagmire, if i was lucky.

When I was 19 I grew up warming up for Djs like Dev, Tony justice, Suv. Klute, Pieter K, Nucleus, we had Danny breaks , Total science, Aqua Sky, etc. and gradually it all fell apart & we stopped booking & I had morons shouting & me “come on mate, play somefink harder, faster!”

As everyone bore witness to, the scene got taken over by formulaic generic sounding templates. Early last year Paradox/Nucleus played in Amsterdam @ IChiOne & dev played a “tunes that influenced me” set , inbetween tracks his banter included laments like “why oh why cant Dnb be like this again?!” & “…Wobble came along and ruined everything!”

----

I took this statement as to compare dnb as it has evolved in the last 8 years (in a negative context) to how dubstep has gone in the last year or two. Freudian slip I guess.

ocr · Post by **ocr** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:00 am

pk- wrote:i'm not really sure what you're saying about dubstep in your first post, could you clarify it?

you seem to be saying that dubstep is heading towards the same formulaic stagnation that swamped dnb, but that you're ok with that and in fact dubstep is great?

saying

its all good, yes its happening again with our eyes wide open but that’s cool, it’s the way of things
after saying

The time arrived in dubstep when I would start having to wade through more and more fodder to pluck out the skull disco 12”, or the Martyn remix, the Kode 9 track just standing high over every other wobbly piece of formulaic shite in the weeks releases.
is what's throwing me, i think.

then again i'm not the sharpest tool in the box

Yes the time's arriving when there's more substandard output, but there's also a huge amount of great music out there, yes it is a productive time and bass music is providing a platform for wonderful experimentation. I'm not saying anything in particular. I'm just inviting comment from people who know more about it than i do. Just seeking knowldege on any similarities and differences between the rise and fall of certain electronic music scenes. Because I knew there were those who knew more about it than me on this forum, thankfully some of these people deigned to step up & share their knowledge with me. For which I'm delighted & was thrilled and mightily interested in any productive, on-topic responses, apologies if I've inadvertently contributed to the general vagueness about what exactly what was being discussed here with any of my posts.

I don’t know how or when people began to assume that anyone was moaning about not being able to find gems out there. I dig too long and I dig too deep, my bank balance, creaking shelves loaded with vinyl, and external hardware bursting with MP3 attests to this.

Besides which Overcast shut all major components of this discussion down with his clarity, knowledge & eloquence, much to my satisfaction and relief.

ocr · Post by **ocr** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:07 am

I took this statement as to compare dnb as it has evolved in the last 8 years (in a negative context) to how dubstep has gone in the last year or two. Freudian slip I guess.

Oh i see, no thats not what I'm suggesting. I'm just looking to hear from others their thoughts on why these things go the way they do, because I never really understood when i was younger.

I'm really engaged with some of the great insights people have shared. am re-reading now. I might have gone about it a bit haphazardly maybe, dunno, too tired now to re-read the highs and lows of this thread

overcast radio · Post by **overcast radio** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:41 am

Thanks again...dance music has always risen and fallen. Because the moves would get old and people would move on. In the late 50's, early 60's mambo was the craze. 1920's, The Charleston. Dance music wasn't ever very deep, intellectual music. Even Austrian waltzes were fluff. Society has advanced enough to create dance musics that are heady enough to suit said better society. Songwriting (an opposite to dance music here) will NEVER die. Ever. Guaranteed. Neither will dance music, so to stay fresh the styles must change constantly. It's all a fusion of cultures within the post-war mash-up we all (wherever you're from) live in.

I read Joe Boyd's White Bicycles (pretty good)...he mentions English folk music as being almost non-existent. And even during the folk/blues explosion in the early 1960's, English musicians embraced American folk music. I think they boiled down true English folk music to Morris dance music, which every English rock band he worked with would be embarassed at. Another form of dance music that went away.

Dubstep influenced me to finish tunes quicker, throw away my clunky Audiomulch patch I made, learn Live, thru-mix, and get it out there. It broke me out of my trap of thinking I'll press a disc, tinker, send it to radio/labels, tinker, expect to be discovered, workshop...I got nothing done. I got more work done in a year listening to dubstep than in five just floating around. I'd argue and say I was finding myself, yeah, but I had limited time to work b/c my day job is composing for TV and library. I also took an art history course and that did as much for me. Rauschenberg and dubstep got my ass in gear.

So yeah, play my tunes out?

PS: And whoever said the forum is knocking out his creativity b/c he'll get called out by the mods is doing it all for the wrong reasons, man. It's the forums' fault? The forum made you conform? You conformed. If I do a demo for a TV spot or news package and it wins, I get worried b/c then it must sound like TV music. When my lib clients say "Well, what kind of production will this track be used for?" or "I don't see it", it means I did something right. And when I see it on IFC or Sundance instead of stupid-ass FOX or ABC, I smile and cash the check. Whoever that was, don't fucking conform, ever. Why do it?

pangaea · Post by **pangaea** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:53 am

Overcast Radio wrote:dance music has always risen and fallen. Because the moves would get old and people would move on...to stay fresh the styles must change constantly

yeah i mean obviously the more restrictions you place on making a type of music, the quicker the genre gets stale. same tempos, soundsets, drum patterns, notes/chords...there's only so much you can do with a rigid template!

Dubstep joins DnB down a dead end alley

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