Dubstep joins DnB down a dead end alley

[metalboxproducts]

Too much emphasis on tight production, not enough emphasis on ideas.

Cheers.

oh yes

[shonky]

if they weren't that anal maybe everything would sound even deader and unoriginal than it already does?

Or maybe they might put more effort into working on grooves, melodies and songwriting. Think it's just a bugbear of mine at the moment because I can hear amazingly well crafted snares, kicks and basslines not doing anything interesting in most tunes - kick on the 1, snare on the 9, eighth note wobbles etc. I just kind of like the more quirky maverick stuff which isn't trying too hard to sound professional.

Just because someone is a good producer, does not necessarily mean that they will be a good musician (and vice versa).

[quark]

Or maybe they might put more effort into working on grooves, melodies and songwriting. Think it's just a bugbear of mine at the moment because I can hear amazingly well crafted snares, kicks and basslines not doing anything interesting in most tunes - kick on the 1, snare on the 9, eighth note wobbles etc. I just kind of like the more quirky maverick stuff which isn't trying too hard to sound professional.

Just because someone is a good producer, does not necessarily mean that they will be a good musician (and vice versa).

i agree. there are many master engineers in million pound studios who don't have a musical ear but can mix a track down well and get a nice guitar sound. but thats a completly different domain to dubstep, dnb and electronic music, in which the producer is often the drummer, musician, mix engineer.
grooves, melodies, etc... are a part of production in that process, as much as eq and compression. sorry, should have said thats what i meant earlier, that in dance and electronic music song writing and production are kind of one and the same

[shonky]

but thats a completly different domain to dubstep, dnb and electronic music, in which the producer is often the drummer, musician, mix engineer.

Pissed myself laughing at the way you put drummer and musician separate

[epithet]

I'd probably mention re-contextualising conscious ragga first over tearing cut up double time breaks.

Ragga wasn't the be-all and end-all of jungle, and conscious ragga certainly wasn't. Still intellectualize if you must

haha, beat me to it. in fact i'm struggling to think of one ragga-jungle track that used 'conscious' samples.

this thread really is quite interesting.

Not so much the be all and end all but the first thing that springs to mind when i think of it, so for me in that respect, congo natty pretty much epitomises jungle.

[shonky]

Not so much the be all and end all but the first thing that springs to mind when i think of it, so for me in that respect, congo natty pretty much epitomises jungle.

You don't know much jungle do you?

[blackdown]

But, accepting your caveat, is there anything that you / we can or should do if a lot of people in the scene or getting into the scene - including punters and DJs and producers - decide that they actually quite like loud hard boshy fun anthems all night and aren't particularly interested in - or even actively dislike - being constantly surprised with rhythmic variation, changes of pace and so on? Come to that, can DJ's and producers even do much to stop the majority of the music going that way if that's what a lot of people want to hear and make and play? Does there come a point where it's better for them to say "that's what they're doing, and it's fine but it's no longer the same thing that we're doing."

It's up to DJs and producers to lead and not follow. That's what dubplate culture is all about. DJs who just give people what they already like should be playing Mika in Yate's Wine Lodges.

Analyzing the ups and downs of a scene on a message board kind of feels like talking about the weaknesses of the England football squad - it's quite interesting, but it's maybe optimistic to expect the manager or the FA to take action based on what we say.

It's not though, because the vast majority of the people who make the most popular records or get the biggest bookings in the scene read and/or post on this forum, even if they dont admit it!

And deeper than that, conveying new ideas is deeply powerful. If today's top guys dont absorb them, perhaps someone else will and go on to be tomorrow's top DJ/producer. It's all about finding your own sound. Everyone who's on top of their game now managed to at one point...

[slothrop]

is someone going to stop playing the tunes they like and putting on nights that lots of people enjoy because someone told them it's having a negative effect on the diversity of the scene? And even if they did, wouldn't there be half a dozen people queuing up to take their place?

I think the thing is that a lot of dubstep's new fans actually like the stuff coming out at the moment, even if it might be sneered at from this forum. Same thing with drum and bass to my mind, it still seems to be pretty popular even though creatively it's done little in the last ten years, and seems to be charmlessly moronic on the whole. Audiences mostly don't give a shit if they're dancing and enjoying themselves, and if they get bored they'll find something else to attach to.

Yeah, exactly.

This is why I'm a bit suspicious of "keep the scene together at all costs" talk - I'm half suspecting that sooner or later people who want to hear and play and make varied, mental, forward thinking music are going to want a seperate rallying post to distinguish what they're doing from (good fun but) comparatively straightforward and predictable stuff. I'm not sure I want to be kept together in a scene that has to cater for people who leave the floor or complain at the DJs if they play anything without a halfstep beat and a big heavy wobbly drop. If that's what they want then it's cool with me and probably quite fun sometimes but I'd rather be into a different scene where I don't have to be worrying (and complaining endlessly on forums) about that sort of attitude sending the scene "down a dead end alley."

I don't think dubstep's at that point yet, but you can kind of see different camps and different sorts of night starting to emerge...

[ddk]

but thats a completly different domain to dubstep, dnb and electronic music, in which the producer is often the drummer, musician, mix engineer.

which is a bit shit for the music's sake.

Music used to be a collaborative process until plug ins and broke labels. It would be good musically if there were a few dedicated mix engineers for this music, who could handle most of the technical shit, in order for artists to spend more time on creative ideas. Rather than spend all their time honing in on their snare compression or whatever.

Most of the really creative artist-producers in reggae, hip hop etc have some one else mix their shit. But in dnb & dubstep the artist does all that him/her self, and it takes up time that could be spend writing a decent tune.

But labels can't afford to rent studios any more so whatever.

[shonky]

Most of the really creative artist-producers in reggae, hip hop etc have some one else mix their shit. But in dnb & dubstep the artist does all that him/her self, and it takes up time that could be spend writing a decent tune.

Yep, seems to me that the best electronic music crews have different people with different strengths. Pretty certain that this was what Goldie does (he definitely did around Timeless), even though a lot of his collaborators were actually good writers and producers (Rob Playford, Optical, etc)

[joe muggs]

I don't think dubstep's at that point yet, but you can kind of see different camps and different sorts of night starting to emerge...

Different camps is HEALTHY. It was "keep the scene together at all costs" talk that stifled D&B surely? As soon as the "committee" of the big boys was formally convened they kybosh was put on innovation.... If there was MORE of an 'anything goes' mentality then 'intelligent', 'liquid funk', 'jump up' and 'techstep' might have developed on into MORE variations instead of getting ossified into the forms that they got stuck in for ever onwards.

[shonky]

I don't think dubstep's at that point yet, but you can kind of see different camps and different sorts of night starting to emerge...

Different camps is HEALTHY. It was "keep the scene together at all costs" talk that stifled D&B surely? As soon as the "committee" of the big boys was formally convened they kybosh was put on innovation.... If there was MORE of an 'anything goes' mentality then 'intelligent', 'liquid funk', 'jump up' and 'techstep' might have developed on into MORE variations instead of getting ossified into the forms that they got stuck in for ever onwards.

Yeah definitely, surely the best genre to be in is one of your own creation.

[joe muggs]

I refuse to be in any genre that would allow me as a member

[jred]

cant be bothered reading the whole tread but my 2cents , fuck off no it doesint

[slothrop]

It's up to DJs and producers to lead and not follow. That's what dubplate culture is all about. DJs who just give people what they already like should be playing Mika in Yate's Wine Lodges.

But what about DJs and promoters and producers who actually like big wobbly anthems? Should they be playing tunes they actually like less because other people think they're more what the scene needs?

Analyzing the ups and downs of a scene on a message board kind of feels like talking about the weaknesses of the England football squad - it's quite interesting, but it's maybe optimistic to expect the manager or the FA to take action based on what we say.

It's not though, because the vast majority of the people who make the most popular records or get the biggest bookings in the scene read and/or post on this forum, even if they dont admit it!

And deeper than that, conveying new ideas is deeply powerful. If today's top guys dont absorb them, perhaps someone else will and go on to be tomorrow's top DJ/producer. It's all about finding your own sound. Everyone who's on top of their game now managed to at one point...

Yeah, okay. I suspect that people would respond better to more positive ideas (ie supporting the people doing interesting stuff) than negative stuff (ie telling people what they shouldn't be doing) though...

[shonky]

cant be bothered reading the whole tread but my 2cents , fuck off no it doesint

Yeah

[joe muggs]

cant be bothered reading the whole tread but my 2cents , fuck off no it doesint

Yeah

yeahhh! YEAHHH!

[epithet]

Not so much the be all and end all but the first thing that springs to mind when i think of it, so for me in that respect, congo natty pretty much epitomises jungle.

You don't know much jungle do you?

I know that like Tarzan, one can get lost in it cos it's MASSIVE !

[tacospheros]

Not so much the be all and end all but the first thing that springs to mind when i think of it, so for me in that respect, congo natty pretty much epitomises jungle.

You don't know much jungle do you?

dude are you serious ?

[shonky]

Not so much the be all and end all but the first thing that springs to mind when i think of it, so for me in that respect, congo natty pretty much epitomises jungle.

You don't know much jungle do you?

I know that like Tarzan, one can get lost in it cos it's MASSIVE !