halfstep?

[boomnoise]

fundamentally i agree. i have many issues with genre and lazy labeling.
but the fact that so many different sounds exists within the dubstep framework is indicative, for me at least, that dubstep transcends the traditional notion of genre. just as grime has many and varied sounds and has become less of a description of the sonics and more about a certain culture, dubstep has, or is starting to do something similar. a scene is taking shape around 'dubstep' that includes tracks which, if semantics is your thing, lack any discernable dub element - problem?

the anti-standardisation argument is interesting but i fail to see how dubstep is in any danger of this. like you say it's very early days. i would question just how pertinent the issues you raise are to half step in particular as a mere composition style. although there is a new thread in this i feel.

[dubway]

i feel that a lot of dubstep has a lot to do with dub actually, especially today

especially halfstep (like barry explained before..)

[blackdown]

i feel that a lot of dubstep has a lot to do with dub actually, especially today

especially halfstep (like barry explained before..)

when i asked Horsepower about this in Jockey Slut circa 2003ish, they described that to them the 'dub' in dubstep was as much about dub-as-instrumental ('the vocal and the dub') as dub-reggae. this was a legacy from its garage roots, where 2step was primarily a vocal sound.

and the to argue that modern d&b has suffered from too much thought is laughable. current d&b is on the whole, caustic noisy excessively functional dancefloor music. i dont suggest going introspective/abstract, i'm just suggesting if people thought a bit more about what's possible at 174 bpm (ie like Amit and Klute do) the sound would benefit - not suffer.

[prismatic7]

and the to argue that modern d&b has suffered from too much thought is laughable. current d&b is on the whole, caustic noisy excessively functional dancefloor music. i dont suggest going introspective/abstract, i'm just suggesting if people thought a bit more about what's possible at 174 bpm (ie like Amit and Klute do) the sound would benefit - not suffer.

damn right. genres aren't ways of pigeonholing music - they are ways of linking it to a history, to a culture, to moments in time. genres don't create fractures in styles, they describe them. how do you explain the difference between Primal Scream and Skream if you can't use genres? You can't, at least simply. Did the kinds of sound that describe Primal Scream's psych-rock scally sound and Skream's dubstep exist before they were named? Hell yes. If you're saying that genres somehow prefigure the sounds that they describe you've got it all wrong.

look at what happened to breaks & D&B I think my point is valid, too much thought about what makes it popular too much standardiziation leads to all the gay clownstep pendulum shit and samey breaks that has flooded the market, this is an intersting new sound but theirs not point over analysing its features it just leads to shitty music.

see, even there you're labelling it. 'gay clownstep pendulum shit'. apart from my difficulties with the 'gay' part of that (kids! don't be homophobic! call it 'dykey'. everyone loves dykes!) what the fuck is 'clownstep'? you rail against genres making everything 'samey' but use the most obscure sub-sub-generic category you can find.

too much analysis doesn't kill anything. it can make you think about it too much, and maybe thinking will diminish your enjoyment (I dont know) but there has to be a point at which

-someone says to you "what the hell is that music? what is it called?" and you can reply "it's [insert name of genre]"

-you can differentiate between Richie Hawtin's boom-chik-boom-chik-boomchikkaboom-chik and a hatcha boomboom-cha---cha

[triac]

look at what happened to breaks & D&B I think my point is valid, too much thought about what makes it popular too much standardiziation leads to all the gay clownstep pendulum shit and samey breaks that has flooded the market, this is an intersting new sound but theirs not point over analysing its features it just leads to shitty music.

Shitty music comes from over analysis? No offence intended, but that sounds like complete nonsense to me...

[geoff]

And by the way, the notion of Loefah or Wonder "inventing" "halfstep" is absurd.

Can we just talk about tunes please? Why do they have to be categorised?

I am interested in the fact that you seem to have nothing constructive to say at all. Dubstep is as formulaic as any other electronic genre. It is easy to identify its basic mechanics, and important so as to avoid merely repeating this formula. So your 'its music, not mechanics' point is, pointless.

I am surprised by your hypocrasy regarding categorisation considering your label explicitly uses categories in order to create hype to paint dubstep as a subgenre of breakbeat and to sell to this market. Each to their own, but perhaps its only ok to use categories if it benefits your label, but not otherwise?

Music gets categorised because we want to talk about it. If you don't, why don't you go away?

[thinking]

what the fuck is 'clownstep'? you rail against genres making everything 'samey' but use the most obscure sub-sub-generic category you can find.

Not really interested in entering this argument, but to be fair Clownstep is a pretty well known 'genre', albeit a rather disparaging name for what should perhaps be referred to as 'nu-jump up'. Clownstep is def a pretty established name though, think Twisted Individual, Clipz etc...

[r33lc4sh]

imho every situation when at least one of the kick or one of the snares is moved from it's original 4x4 creates _breakbeat_
breakbeat it's not built on "looped breakbeats (or busy, break beat-like programming)" as blackdown said but on a shift in the basic straight pattern
so dubstep is a breakbeat driven music

[paulie]

I am interested in the fact that you seem to have nothing constructive to say at all. Dubstep is as formulaic as any other electronic genre. It is easy to identify its basic mechanics, and important so as to avoid merely repeating this formula. So your 'its music, not mechanics' point is, pointless.

I don't agree for a minute that electronic music is formulaic, any more than any other form of music. It's the same as anything else - there are good examples of electronic music and it's subgenres, which are by far outweighed by the poor examples. You can identify mechanics in anything, but where is the value in that? If you can't appreciate music as art then why are you listening to it? My posts in this thread are a reaction to the bullshit that Blackdown spouts to further his own agenda.

I am surprised by your hypocrasy regarding categorisation considering your label explicitly uses categories in order to create hype to paint dubstep as a subgenre of breakbeat and to sell to this market. Each to their own, but perhaps its only ok to use categories if it benefits your label, but not otherwise?

I'm not sure where you get this from. What we have always tried to do at our label is get people from other scenes into the sound and make it grow. I have never tried to paint dubstep as a subgenre of breakbeat, saying that is just ignorant. I'm equally unsure as to why you think you're in a position to call me a hypocrite. It's unclear what you've done to help the scene and make the music grow, but I doubt it's particularly significant. If you take the time to study our back catalogue you'll notice we have released grime, breaks, uk garage, broken beat and straight up dubstep. I don't accept for a minute that we use categories to sell records: we ignore categories.

Music gets categorised because we want to talk about it. If you don't, why don't you go away?

Oh, and cheers for that constructive statement.

[geoff]

My posts in this thread are a reaction to the bullshit that Blackdown spouts to further his own agenda.

I thought he was the main journalist providing dubstep coverage. I've read his writing, and I think dubstep is very lucky to have such a devoted writer supporting it. Just think, it could have none. Is there something personal between you and blackdown that we don't know about, because Blackdown's writing is far from bullshit. Then again, I've never read anything he has written about your label, so is that why you don't like him? That's a shame, because he written good things about some artists whose tunes you have released such as Distance's 'Fallen'. Just interested, because the beef between you and him is, while entertaining, is perhaps something you should settle in private.

[blackdown]

My posts in this thread are a reaction to the bullshit that Blackdown spouts to further his own agenda.

Just interested, because the beef between you and him is, while entertaining, is perhaps something you should settle in private.

i agree 100%. there are many personal disagrements inside many scenes. it's professional to keep them offline.

[[b]racket]

when i asked Horsepower about this in Jockey Slut circa 2003ish, they described that to them the 'dub' in dubstep was as much about dub-as-instrumental ('the vocal and the dub') as dub-reggae. this was a legacy from its garage roots, where 2step was primarily a vocal sound.

Read that interview just the other day....

[paulie]

I thought he was the main journalist providing dubstep coverage. I've read his writing, and I think dubstep is very lucky to have such a devoted writer supporting it. Just think, it could have none. Is there something personal between you and blackdown that we don't know about, because Blackdown's writing is far from bullshit.

Lots of people don't like Blackdown's views, I'm just the only person who talks about it. I think it's counterproductive to the scene's development, so why should I stand around and let it go?

Then again, I've never read anything he has written about your label, so is that why you don't like him? That's a shame, because he written good things about some artists whose tunes you have released such as Distance's 'Fallen'.

He has written about our stuff, and he has been very complimentary about tracks that I've written so it's not a personal thing at all. In fact, I've always got on well with him.

To emphasise, this is not personal beef so why not talk about it on a forum?

[numaestro]

I reckon half-step is one of the most interesting develpments - I always thought dub/reggae was played at about 70/80 but the hats were doing like double time - so we're doing the same but the other way round if u get what I mean . I understand that it is easy for me down here as I didnt have to deal with all the garage yoof etc but this music is still linked to garage for me cos it had an evil funky swing - if u lose thefunk then it just don't groove. Anyway - tell me I'm chatting bollox or not

[paulie]

Howie - your new tunes are sick.

[numaestro]

thanx m8 thought u were gonna tell me off for mentioning the "g" word!!!

[Citrus Boy]

I was gonna post something sensible but nah...fight on!!

[geoff]

Lots of people don't like Blackdown's views, I'm just the only person who talks about it. I think it's counterproductive to the scene's development, so why should I stand around and let it go?

I thought people would appreciate that someone was writing about the scene intelligently. Can you explain why people don't like Blackdown's views.

[numaestro]

Lots of people don't like Blackdown's views, I'm just the only person who talks about it. I think it's counterproductive to the scene's development, so why should I stand around and let it go?

I thought people would appreciate that someone was writing about the scene intelligently. Can you explain why people don't like Blackdown's views.

U is a bit of shit stirrer!!! Reckon you'd make it big time in politics down here m8!

[geoff]

U is a bit of shit stirrer!!! Reckon you'd make it big time in politics down here m8!

lol
don't mean to be. Was just nosily interested in what was behind some of these arguments.