i cant get my head round it..........

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dubinsight
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Re: i cant get my head round it..........

Post by dubinsight » Tue May 20, 2008 8:37 pm

Le_Hardcore_Chiefus wrote:where did the time space come from b4 the big bang...?

yeah eart stars planets etc came after big bang ....where did that bang come from and the space it happened in......spaced out man
the literal "fabric" of space/time, meaning the "ingredients" necessary for something like space/time to even exist (regardless of what form or forms it exists in), only came into existence after the big bang. so, in that sense, space/time simply couldn't exist before the big bang. put painfully simply, for space to exist, there must be matter that takes up "space". also, for time to exist, there must be matter that begins, deteriorates, and then ends.

of course, not like i "know" this stuff. i just read it all somewhere, its not me that "gets" it, you know? its not like we actually "get" calculus, but we can use the formulas, if we trust the sources.

what fucks me up is the consideration that what all this suggests is that everything we intellectually experience, which is wholly and entirely based on the belief of a very real "space and time" that exists somehow outside of ourselves, is also in turn wholly and entirely based on the existence of matter. or, at the very least, on matter existing in the form that it does. its fucked up, because we don't consider our personal, internal, emotional, "human" selves to be nothing but based on matter existing in some mode. we don't think of our "happiness", or our "desire", or particular personalities and so on, to be based entirely on the physical existence of physical matter. but, for there to even be a concept of "space/time", from which everything else in the physical universe follows, there must be matter of some sort in some form.

here's where it really starts to get deep, though. you guys are getting into, just by asking some simple questions, the realm of "spirituality". i don't separate spirituality from the mundaneness of every-day life. its not like theres this "spiritual world" over here, and over there is the "practical, real world". they're both one in the same. that said, the practical realities of, say, quantum physics or whatever, under reasoned analysis, become themselves spiritual, right?

now, we start to see where the usual talk of God and other extremely popular topics in spirituality become suspect. their flaws start to stick out in nasty ways. Christians, for example, usually speak of God as a literally existing being more or less separate from His Creation. if that were so, if God literally "exists" as all other things that "exist" do, but also separate from them, then that literally "existing" God MUST be in some material form. now that doesn't mean we will see this material god-thing right away. like "dark matter", or like the gravitational stress on one planet thats visible proves the existence of another that's not, often things cant be directly observed, BUT THEY WILL STILL BE PROVEN BY INDIRECT INFERENCE.

the thing is, without even questioning the existence of the Creator and Source, theres a conflict, and inconsistency. as i mentioned, for god to literally exist, meaning for god to exist in a form where "he", as an individual and separate entity, could create and affect physical matter, as the christians clearly state, he would himself have to be existing in the same "form", on the same "plane". basicly, God, if he is separate from but also the source of absolutely all things, would have to exist in the very dimensions we do (you know, length, width, height, time, and the others i don't grasp).

what this then means is this: god, since he must be a dimensional creature as we are, and as all matter is, then he must have a physical form (even "energy" qualifies. a cloud of interstellar gas qualifies), that physical form must take up space (of course) in a specific location (though it could travel), and most of all: for God to exist in this form, for anything to exist in any form, there must be a "source". all things that exist do so only because of causes and conditions coming together to make that "thing". due to that very fact of causes and conditions, every single material "thing" is in a state of change, its all in flux, nothing remains permanent. it cant. as long as there is causes and conditions, there is change, there is "impermanence".

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Post by dubinsight » Tue May 20, 2008 8:37 pm

if you've made it this far, you'll notice how extremely far from the christians idea of God my reasoning is. That is where, for instance, the Christian becomes more a religious zealot than a reasoned and intelligent spiritual creature. for all intents and purposes, nearly all christianity would claim that reasoning i went through is complete lies, absolutely not true in every way, and im actually spreading sinful misinformation.

are christians wrong? as individuals, probably, nearly every single one. same also with nearly every member of every single faith. same also, in fact, with every single human being ever. humans are just plain incorrect, all the time. does that mean christianity ITSELF is wrong? hard to say. at the very least, there's reason to believe EVERYONE'S somewhat right as well.

in the end, the fact of the matter is we just cant get outside of ourselves. everything we experience and learn and "know" will always be within that extremely suspicious and subjective context of "self", of "being" what you are, and thinking the way you do.

as far as you know, the only thing thats real is "mind". but, i didn't say "just YOUR mind". i mean "mind" itself, the very substance or root of mind, of all minds. all things experience and perceived and "understood" are nothing other than products of our minds, and our minds have an essence that is a mystery to most of us. this is not the mind that believes in one thing and hates another. this is not the mind that "knows" how to ride a bike and loves dubstep. that stuff is just the current appearance of "mind", its the clothes that "essence of mind" decided to wear this day. or this life, more like it.

i have more than enough reason to believe that the "Truth" of all things is literally this "essence of mind" itself. not even that all things come from this "essence of mind", but that all things literally ARE this mind.

if, for instance, the christians could approach God this way, then perhaps christianity would make more sense to me. The God i know of, through direct experience and reasoned awareness, is not a separate source and master of all things. if you ask me, that makes the universe bigger than god, and god is just a massive superhero trying to keep it all together. the God i know of is nothing BUT the sum of all things, and nothing "besides", nothing "outside" of that. there's no man behind the curtain, pulling strings and pushing buttons. its far, far more amazing than that. its far, far bigger and brighter and more profound than that.

it is this:

"God" is nothing more, nor nothing less, nor nothing outside of, nor nothing short of absolutely all things that are, were, will be, and even possibly could be. For this reason, "God" will never be at conflict with anything. If you experience conflict and suffering, you are experiencing God. If you experience the peace and serenity of no conflict and no suffering, you are experiencing God. Cold is God. Hot is God. Good is God. Bad is God. and so on, and so on, and so on...

you see, all these "things" that we name, WE named them that. The Big Bang didn't introduce itself to us by that name. WE went looking for something WE needed, WE decided we found it, and WE named it.

like that old zen koan, "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

i say, fuck the answer, as the "tree" is only a "tree" to ME, the "forest" only exists as a "forest" because i called it that, i projected the concept of "forest" on a bunch of trees. so, the "tree", the "falling", the "forest", and everything following, exist only as long as my "self" is there to call it that.

when we remove all the subjective designations, what's left? anything? if there is, that must be "IT". but how do we get there? how do we see through absolutely all of the subjective designations?

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Post by dubinsight » Tue May 20, 2008 8:46 pm

Slim wrote:
soldjaaa_chik wrote:exactly....there must be a way to use all of our brain. We will know one day how to.
Actually the idea that we only use a small proportion of our brain is crap. Granted, we don't use all of it at the same time, because that is known as a seizure, but we have a fair idea what most of our brain does.
yeah, man, true. i wonder if thats one of those half-assed truths that get so twisted and misunderstood that the general understanding is actually fairly wrong, but somehow half right.

i wonder if it works more like, we use our "entire brains", area-wise, but those areas aren't used to their full potentials?

so its not like weve got a brain like a pie chart, where this little sliver is "used brain" and all the rest is just "unused brain". its probably more like the pie chart is 100% "used brain", but the pie itself should be covering way more.

so, maybe, the trick towards realizing that potential is less about finding an unused area and turning it on, as much as taking the whole used area and basically "folding" it over, just amplifying it or causing it to exponentially replicate itself, almost like a virus?

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Post by misk » Tue May 20, 2008 8:55 pm

gahg!!! stop thinking so damn much!

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Post by d-T-r » Tue May 20, 2008 9:27 pm

first of all : "your current capabilities of understanding outweigh that of which you have been given to understand"

second: god is a mind state

third: trans-dimensional universes exist aswell as the '3d' ones we can see with telescopes.

fourth :our mind/soul etc is a type of energy consisting inside our bodies- our bodies are just the current dimension's 'host' or 'tour guide' other dimensions arent seen or realized through our bodily senses , just perceived and felt.

its like wave lengths and vibrations only with light instead as everything is light. we're only able to live within a certain range of these frequencies...only there more than freuencies. like sound--20hz-20khz etc

this stuff is virtually impossible to explain anyway. you have yo just feel it and experience it and even then its hard to define and describe.

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Post by djelements » Tue May 20, 2008 9:42 pm

Let me summarize most of the shit what's been said on here.
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