balkan/gypsy/whatever

[staas]

I don't like this kind of music because it does not address to the intellectuals/young ppl, but rather to old people or to the people from the rural environment (peasants) with no college, big hopes, dreams and aspirations. its message is childish, it usually speaks about a shepherd who misses his ladyfriend, the musical theme is repeated over and over again and apparently the only human beings who are able to dance on it are my grandparents.

this kind of music will always be light and easy-going, aiming to be a "politically correct - let's not talk about anything relevant - let's not disturb anyone OR make them think too hard" type of music, just like any other folklore/popular music (from any corner of this world)

you think folklore music comes from communist or fascist regimes? that's ridiculous because this music predates those ideologies by centuries! i don't particularly expect music to make me want to do drugs

i don't see how you can say the theme is repeated over and over again, most modern music is only in 4/4 the folk traditions can switch from 4/4 to 11/16 in the space of two minutes, there's more diversity in the space of one composition sometimes than there is in most blues based or electronic genres

and i'm offended by your bourgeois criteria for music, maybe i'm not an "intellectual" and i'm not college educated but i deserve to listen to or make music as much as you do, i like that you consider music that makes you want to "do drugs and skank" as being on some higher intellectual ground

[esoundc]

that is no Bulgaria

http://ziezi.net/gavra_files/cigani.jpe
http://ziezi.net/gavra_files/kirilka.gif
http://ziezi.net/gavra_files/4a.jpe

that is Bulgaria

http://ziezi.net/zhene.jpg




free, freedomism, new worlds tolerance have nothing to do with discoursing the history and creating myths. Yes Gypsies are good musicians, but do u know that the first voice send thru "Voyager" in space was from Bulgaria, and yes it was giant Tzarstvo in the past beeing on three seas. The music here is based on a phenomen called Astornomical Music and Culture

[alexchuck]

no, it does not come from communist/fascist regimes but it was one of the few types of music accepted by them. those regimes were against rock, punk, disco, hip-hop, etc because they did not like free, underground or "sinful" music and they did not want the minds of the citizens corrupted by these things. i'm sure you know what i'm talking about, tell me how many times Metallica, Sex Pistols or Kraftwerk were allowed to tour in the Balkans before 1989. i see you're from Calgary, how can you even know what's happening in the Balkans? back in the days when the Balkans were struggling under communism what were you doing?

in order to add some juice to the discussion, here are some samples:

Bulgaria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m6ts3VcsTU
Romania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9T0teHv8mE
Serbia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C__kfoM2NDY

now take a look at the singers/dancers. they look like nice people, but they are not exactly the type of people I would hang out with or identify myself with. talk to a random person from the countryside in the Balkans: they have a very reduced outlook of the world, promoting some kind of grass-roots democracy combined with childish intolerance, but not necessarily because they are bad people (which they are not, they are kind and humble), but because their illiteracy plays an important role in forming one's opinions.

QUESTION FOR YOU: what ideologies does this music predate and what can we learn from it? at least the bands that I've listed (gogol bordello, etc) TALK about something :>

PS: my argument is bourgeois? that was a phrase used by Jivkov and Tito and Ceausescu _A LOT_ to describe the opponents of the regime.

[esoundc]

what i'm against is this:


and this

the first flyer is for bulgarian bar in New York, how nice they represent Balkan music which is totally not right, i writed enough thru history so i do not feel anymore to do discussions end up turninig on communist regimes and all that which is totally other case.

also this is crap, and that is another thing u see as Balkan Music.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=OkiHJZit6PU
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ThvNnLB9LPo
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp_VLbK_abg

what that is a cross cultural mixture of no roots, well thank you, but no way

[staas]

anuote="bibishte"]no, it does not come from communist/fascist regimes but it was one of the few types of music accepted by them. those regimes were against rock, punk, disco, hip-hop, etc because they did not like free, underground or "sinful" music and they did not want the minds of the citizens corrupted by these things.

depends on which country, yugoslavia had rock bands and the neo-primitivism movement and was pretty open musically, the others not so much, but music can't judged on what a few people did with it, especially when it was around before and after those regimes

back in the days when the Balkans were struggling under communism what were you doing?

living in the balkans struggling under communism

QUESTION FOR YOU: what ideologies does this music predate and what can we learn from it? at least the bands that I've listed (gogol bordello, etc) TALK about something :>

we can learn about culture and art, that's what music is, we can get a glimpse of the minds of people who died hundreds of years before we were born
folkloric music talks about about the universal themes of love, hardship,emotions that are present in all music, and anything else that the musician wants; work, dancing bears, religion, earthquakes

as far as the bands you've listed i think only gogol and kultur shock have relevant lyrics(although i don't know who juke baritone is) some of their songs are about things(largely modern things) that obviously can't have been discussed in other time periods, some are about dancing, drinking girls etc. which shows up in folk music, alot of gogol's songs are about having been raised an in a different culture, folkloric music being part of that, i assume those artists would disagree with your opinion, hell the new J.U.F. has yuri yunakov all over it, they must like folk music to invite a folk/jazz player to record with them
and hell, music doesn't have to say something, or else instrumental music is automatically worthless, and let's face it, as a member of this site you must like music that isn't about anything, dubstep is not known for thought provoking lyrics

PS: my argument is bourgeois? that was a phrase used by Jivkov and Tito and Ceausescu _A LOT_ to describe the opponents of the regime.

they said that classical, rock music etc. are bourgeois, you said peasants and old people don't know about music, that's a different ballpark, and i'm sorry but music is a universal language that can be appreciated by any man,woman and child on this planet equally, and i would die before i agree otherwise

[esoundc]

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1h73_5u7Y
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIT0I2pIG4s
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=T79bc6DgY ... re=related

yeah it is what it is, it is called Asimilation Jihad, sorry but there is no such thing as Balkan Music as u know the term.

[staas]

i love that music from different cultures can be mixed, as long as there's respect for the traditions being incorporated(which often doesn't happen with turbo-folk,chalga etc.)

but i still like dancing to that music

[esoundc]

the thing is that myth Balkan Music can play really bad joke in the future to a naitve tribe have living here since the begining of time. It seems like a tribe is dying and as i pointed above some things and pictures the world is getting really different idea of the natives, which are not natives, i give a lot of info and hystorical fact, i cannot be ignorant to real social and migration process hapens infornt of my eyes. The bigger problem was that person:

has rize his voice for cultural minister of Bulgaria, and yes he is because of the pop folk, even if he is not in the goverment.
pop folk is not a balkan music as a phenomenon term, but it is a problem from a same root.

make differences please.

[staas]

pop-folk type musics aren't popular outside the countries in which they are made though, nobody in america knows who azis is, they do know people slavic,turkish and gypsy like ivan milev, ivo papasov,theodosii spassov etc. who mix folk with things like jazz and do it in a skillful way that respects the traditions


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEMuUb38eE
this is the kind of thing that represents balkan music to a world wide audience and i like it

[/url]

[esoundc]

pop-folk type musics aren't popular outside the countries in which they are made though, nobody in america knows who azis is, they do know people slavic,turkish and gypsy like ivan milev, ivo papasov,theodosii spassov etc. who mix folk with things like jazz and do it in a skillful way that respects the traditions


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEMuUb38eE
this is the kind of thing that represents balkan music to a world wide audience and i like it

[/url]

for me that is not the way, my point of view, i see you are pointing names on Kuker music. that is comercial side of the things. i agree that sometimes crossing music genres can be allright, but not in the mainstream.
also Slavic, Turkish and Gypsy pepole are not taking part in the old hystory of the Balkans / except Slavic tribes/, so it can be all big mistake going, a lot of archeologists and historics are making amazing discoveryes wrtie now, but since u are bulgarian, u might heard about.

[staas]

that type of music that's on kuker and labels like that might be more commercial than pure folk music, but it's in definitely not in the mainstream outside of south east europe, only people who are interested in underground music who like learning about foreign cultures know any artists from the balkans, mainstream music fans here don't even the most mainstream artists like bregovic and kusterica, my view is that the musicians have the responsibility to inform listeners that they make contemporary music that isn't completely traditional


i've heard about some discoveries about pre-christian religions and things like that, but only in passing and i haven't read anything yet that is in depth, most of the bulgarians who live here don't take interest in the news from home so it's hard to hear about alot of things like that, some people don't even know who georgi parvanov is

[esoundc]

that type of music that's on kuker and labels like that might be more commercial than pure folk music, but it's in definitely not in the mainstream outside of south east europe.


i've heard about some discoveries about pre-christian religions and things like that, but only in passing and i haven't read anything yet that is in depth, most of the bulgarians who live here don't take interest in the news from home so it's hard to hear about alot of things like that, some people don't even know who georgi parvanov is

Kuker is on BBC also Ivo Papasov, thats big enough for represent.

some books and info:

http://www.knigabg.com/index.php?page=book&id=5765
http://www.knigabg.com/index.php?page=book&id=10451

there are a lot of good books also, but i can point this ones, like a lot of facts beeing hidden in comunist times about real native history.

http://news.netinfo.bg/?tid=40&oid=614178

[staas]

thanks for those links, i'll write them down for when someone i know goes to bulgaria


the worst is thing about being an immigrant, is having to pay $20 shipping for books and cds that cost $5 in bulgaria
and having to pay $5 bucks for lokym and shit like that which should cost under a dollar

[ginsu]

I like a mix of trad music and modern beats and everything in between.

trad folk music comes from a time before reccorded music where you had to learn how to play and instrument if you wanted to ehar music. there were more musicians and more semi professional musicians because every bar had to hire one/some before DJs and etc. IN OTHER WORDS: with more musicans there was more competition, more progression, more complexity adn more musical skills.

I like modern music becuase it has the power of technology to move bass it can be played louder and has more texture diversity.

I like all the new permutations of music. as its now common for new musicians to hear music recordings from around the earth and from thousands of years of history (from various notation systems). they can respond to these new sounds and have a chance to incorperate them into their music.

you can be a purist if you want and get into the minutia of catogorization. im sure that will be useful to musicologists or decendents. it may help your ego when you trace your lineage with pride.

therye still sorting out ancient history. many people catagorize those ancient balkan "writings" as decorative markings and not a language at all. who is to know. it will be nice to see what archeologists discover in the coming years. personally i hope they are writings. and i hope those pyramids are real. sumaria and the indus valley seem like just the tip of the iceberg.

[esoundc]

you can be a purist if you want and get into the minutia of catogorization. im sure that will be useful to musicologists or decendents. it may help your ego when you trace your lineage with pride.

do u read all what was writen?

therye still sorting out ancient history. many people catagorize those ancient balkan "writings" as decorative markings and not a language at all. who is to know. it will be nice to see what archeologists discover in the coming years. personally i hope they are writings. and i hope those pyramids are real. sumaria and the indus valley seem like just the tip of the iceberg.

the docorative markings is calendar:


a name

alphabet


the bigger problem is who and why is rechanging the history and creating myths like a Gypsy Balkan Music.

[esoundc]

^^ Наздраве

[gars]

aaa šopska salata mamu joj njenu..njam!

[ginsu]

what age range it that calendar dated to? i believe the artifacts ive seen in books of archeological anomalies were more primitive.

sure i read the thread but perhaps not with as much interest as some one who gives a care. im not balkan or a gypsy. im just a music head.

its my understanding that gypsies tend to absorb local music styles and will play whatevers popular in the area. What Ive heard of traditional gypsy music that they play among themselves, it sounds like Afganistani/indian chanting/drones. or whatever.

but in general one could argue that if a gypsy plays it, its gypsy music.

you can get outraged at the audacity of some gypsies but music is something to be shared and passes from musician to musician the way people exchange jokes or stories. it belong to musicians more than the general population at large or a flag. or a flag that was flown ten thousadn years ago. most musical "styles" are actually teh styles of certain specific individuals that were so popular that they were copied by many many more musicians until they become a genre. then maybe years later some one with special brains codifies everything and classifies everythign and draws boundries and plants a flag on it. so maybe they can stake a claim on it for themselves.

[esoundc]

what age range it that calendar dated to? i believe the artifacts ive seen in books of archeological anomalies were more primitive.

well it might happen to be one of the oldest in the world, if not the oldest one, fact also is that in ancient Varna is the oldest gold in the world found. So it is not about a primitive culture but for sure simple one.

sure i read the thread but perhaps not with as much interest as some one who gives a care. im not balkan or a gypsy. im just a music head.

so i dunno get why that with ego and all other arrived in the conversation, roots and culture u know

its my understanding that gypsies tend to absorb local music styles and will play whatevers popular in the area. What Ive heard of traditional gypsy music that they play among themselves, it sounds like Afganistani/indian chanting/drones. or whatever.
but in general one could argue that if a gypsy plays it, its gypsy music.

ao that i was trying to say, Balkans are not India and we shall really make a difference and not be eazy fooled by mass media myths and fake phenomenons

you can get outraged at the audacity of some gypsies but music is something to be shared and passes from musician to musician the way people exchange jokes or stories. it belong to musicians more than the general population at large or a flag. or a flag that was flown ten thousadn years ago. most musical "styles" are actually teh styles of certain specific individuals that were so popular that they were copied by many many more musicians until they become a genre. then maybe years later some one with special brains codifies everything and classifies everythign and draws boundries and plants a flag on it. so maybe they can stake a claim on it for themselves.

agree on that point plus clearin another point also, folklor of and tribe is not just the music, it's also his belief's , mythology, kids stories and more other things conected to native tribal culture
and yes, i'm also into music( this is a reason i write in this forum)

[esoundc]

aaa šopska salata mamu joj njenu..njam!

cheers