commercialism

[jay]

also, like it or not there are ethical issues in doing adverts. like, whether you want the work you have created to be used to promote something which is potentially exploitative or negative - like nike or some of the other mega corporations on your mate's cv.

hhmm, ok if your offered an advert and you feel compromised by the nature of the product/company or your just not comfortable doing the add then turn it down, you always have a choice.
we do adverts and i've got to say it has improved our tunes massively... also if we create something that we love then we shelve it and save it for darkstar material. darkstar and hyperdub are always at the forefront of our output so all the best things we do go that way.
you'd be surprised how many independent labels and producers have sync work regularly. certain indie's have sync departments looking for programs/ads/films to place music in. its a massive source of revenue in todays music industry especially on the independent side. it doesnt mean people are selling out its just part of the business and in some ways it's vital for people to keep creating.

www.myspace.com/darkstar001

[ST100]

I don't want it to go super-commercial

[reptilian]

"This is getting silly, you obviously use a computer, I'm betting you also have a cell/mobile phone, drink sodas/beer, wear branded trainers etc etc Hypocracy is not a good look bruv."

look i know what you're saying but i'm not saying that everyone has to run around with leaves over their dicks eating roadkill

i guess what i was getting at was that choosing what you do or dont do involves making ethical choices and its up to the artists to choose what theyre happy with

you cant just say yes to every ad or company as a gut reaction - surely you'd agree that some companys are better than others and are more appropriate

hey lets put dark dubstep on an army ad, or give music to a film that has racist themes for example. would that be ok?

and im defintitely not saying djs should be not for profit thats just ridiculous... totally nothing to do with what i was saying

to me the underground seems healthy enough without the mainstream money but maybe thats just appearances

[overcast radio]

I guess I should weigh in here.

The whole sell-out/underground argument is such a gray area. Art and commerce are such deep topics/aspects in culture (American/western culture taking #1 spot 100-fold); it's hard to even pinpoint what is being debated because there's so much misunderstanding of how it (the music biz) used to work, works now, and will work.

One big outlet that professional composers engage with are libraries. All promos you see (coming-ups, rejoins, background music, and trailers) are library/stock music. So let me dispel the myth that the composer is approached by every single editor they end up getting used by. I worked at a major (and independent) music library for 9 years, was their Sr. Producer, and worked on many discs and custom jobs with them. I have almost 500 titles published with them. The titles' genres range from abstract electro-acoustic sound design, dubstep (influenced), and crap I wouldn't even play for my mother. Their clients range from network, cable, studio, post-prod houses, ad houses, independent editors, directors, film-makers, film-producers, live shows, kiosk to churches, sports teams, the Armed Forces, wedding video producers, schools, government agencies, etc.

I've sat home and watched my music on Republican and Democrat PSA's and every fucking 24-hr news network you can find, I don't care if you are a brainwashed conservative rascist who watches FOX, or some CNN stalwart, or MSNBC nerd. I've ran promos for them all...custom, stock, whatever. One year during the RNC in NYC I made "War On War" stickers with royalty money from those exact plays. One of my "skills" in the commercial world is dark sound design and ironically war-time is good for me. I've joked with fellow producers about how likely it would be that if I ever got caught in a hostage or terror situation in NYC, I'd probably score my own death.

Do I stop creating music that ultimately supports things I hate? No. One must ask themselves how much do they "hate" the things they are hating. Sure, I firmly believe capitalism is another economic mutation that is out of control whose only true parallel is cancer, but this is the world we live in. Some of the more offensive things I've done while under staff (repeat, under staff) is score a theme to GMA when they broadcast from the USS Enterprise. They greeted soldiers, and basically brainwashed the US for 2 hrs. This was a custom demo I did and was picked. So as any trained and staff composer would do, I did it. Did I hate it? Yep. Do I hate writing quasi-military, heart-warming patriotic music? Probably most of all. The only worse than writing and recording quasi-militaristic, heart-warming patriotic (sample-based/MIDI) music is having no time to even make something interesting because the piece of shit you are scoring airs in 2 hours, and your on-air is a fucking twat with a vision. (Note: I'm not talking about the producer of GMA here...he's cool with me!) So you see my point?

Why should dubstep be immune to...anything? My dub tracks are hitting now. I publish all of them. Everyone knows that indie labels with an online retailer account are only interested in mechanical royalties. You can be certain that when a music sup asks me to temp a commercial I'm going to try some dubstep--if it fits. If not, something else. Ad houses want whatever is cutting edge, hip or whatever. They are licensing a lifestyle...not a track. They are giving taste-making power to their lame products. Needledrop artist tracks accomplish a few different things. They sell records. They break artists. They create consumer identity with product both subliminally and literally. The youth market (18-35) doesn't trust a company, they trust their favorite artists, and the artists end up endorsing the product...whether they like it, or know it, or not. It all comes down to tiny conversations between two people. If I work with a creative that sees my edm/dubstep music-world as an edge to her getting the account she wants so badly...who am I to stand in her way or mine?

I'm not even sure what we're talking about anymore...but the facts are these: The music biz is in a massive state of flux/paradigm shift. The production music worlds and the artist music worlds are 100% super-imposed because the boundaries of their respective revenue (i.e. sync/license v. sales) are destroyed. Mega-publishing conglomerates are buying everything. All music searching is harddrive-based, and the CD itself is an endangered species. The real money in music is in sync/license/publishing...and the most high end sync option is Film and TV.
The entire committee-based music industry is dead. It's us and them as far as I'm concerned. Look at the writing on the wall...record sales? All-time low. Concert tix? Through the roof. Big recording studios? Closing left and right. Needledrops in ads? Standard. Indie labels? Millions. Commercial radio? Dinosaur. None of the traditional committee roles exist anymore. Needledrop is the new payola. The music biz is following all big biz...condensing more and more, big conglomo-publishing corps, and really in the end a federalist/single state view manifested through another art-industry. Fuck it! This is the modern music world...not what I though it would be when I was a kid. The whole game is changed, and so it follows the old terms/mindsets like "sell-out", "artistic integerity", "underground" all die with it. Dubstep is underground sure, but is it? Didn't Mala have a license for Children Of Men? Look at that article in New York magazine during Dub War 3rd Birthday. Underground yeah, but it's not outsider art or anything. Free-jazz is fucking underground, improv. Unrecorded free-music with musicians who have never met is deep, almost outsider art. And it doesn't sell sneakers so don't expect to hear it tonight. Dubstep is edm to the rest of the world...and edm is out of the closet a long time now. It's not selling dubstep it's selling the edm lifestyle and everything that it comes with to the average American who is overweight, overworked, overtired, and knows nothing about the forbidden underworld of club music!

(very scattered thoughts, but so many topics have been put forth at once...I don't know how to react.)

[mechabot 01]

"This is getting silly, you obviously use a computer, I'm betting you also have a cell/mobile phone, drink sodas/beer, wear branded trainers etc etc Hypocracy is not a good look bruv."

look i know what you're saying but i'm not saying that everyone has to run around with leaves over their dicks eating roadkill

i guess what i was getting at was that choosing what you do or dont do involves making ethical choices and its up to the artists to choose what theyre happy with

you cant just say yes to every ad or company as a gut reaction - surely you'd agree that some companys are better than others and are more appropriate

hey lets put dark dubstep on an army ad, or give music to a film that has racist themes for example. would that be ok?

and im defintitely not saying djs should be not for profit thats just ridiculous... totally nothing to do with what i was saying

to me the underground seems healthy enough without the mainstream money but maybe thats just appearances

Bruv, your not making a lot of sense now. The examples you gave were the Nike mix and the MTV ad, both of which are companies that are very relevant to youth culture so these would be good choices according to your table of ethics.


Don't judge others, just do you bruv.

[overcast radio]

Hi Mecha...we are playing soon yeah? (I hope!)

[mechabot 01]

Hi Mecha...we are playing soon yeah? (I hope!)

Yeah, I told Tom I'm always down to spin at Dead Crew Orbit. We should link soon for a beer or two innit.

Andrew is starting his Breaksfm show this coming week too, maybe you can drop a guest mix on it at some point.

[__________]

[guyus-]

never heard the katie perry remix but i hate the original.. why would someone do a dubstep remix of that?
thats awful. but i don't see a problem with dubstep getting exposure or being used for some commercials. don't think that would affect the scene and it's no sell-out to me because it doesn't change the music itself.

[djshiva]

fair enough, but personal preference about who gets to listen to the music, and what exposure it should receive, is something that will have to remain personal - noone owns a music scene.

I've been a dubstep fan longer than most people, and perhaps personally I would have preferred it didn't get so big a couple of years ago and changed in ways I didn't like - but that's just the way things go, it's not mine to be precious about. Arts and culture can't exist in a vacuum, growth is natural, and noone wants to be a starving artist when they can earn a living from doing what they love.

THIS!

[djshiva]

i find this discussion fascinating simply because it's a dilemma i have thought a lot about.

i personally would not do music for certain corporations, simply because i would not feel comfortable having my music used to make them more money and exploit more people (nike being a prime example of that). HOWEVER, that is a PERSONAL choice, and not one that i expect anyone else to make. i have my own personal ethics, but they are mine, and one thing i learned long ago, is that i cannot expect everyone else to live by my personal ethical code.

of course, i would love it if no one would cater to the megacorporations, but people gotta eat, and i understand that. so much as i may disagree when someone does, it's not my place to judge them. i dunno their story or their struggle, so i can say "i wouldn't do it", but i am not gonna tell anyone that they can't.

but then, and here's the flipside of this, i am currently in the worst financial position i have been in for years. if someone offered me $5k to make music, COULD i turn them down? would my ethics mean anything if i starve to death? is there even really a choice? do the corporations know that and use it to their advantage?

it's complex, and something i don't have all the answers to, so i guess i will cross that bridge if i ever come to it.

[reptilian]

[/quote]


Bruv, your not making a lot of sense now. The examples you gave were the Nike mix and the MTV ad, both of which are companies that are very relevant to youth culture so these would be good choices according to your table of ethics.


Don't judge others, just do you bruv.[/quote]

i'm not judging anyone. at the end of the day my own table of ethics says that nike and mtv are not good for "youth culture" but thats my view and im fine if people disagree. guess i take more of a diy/independent stance and feel that a lot has been achieved without corporate involvement - i was always quite impressed by this but if people want to start getting involved good for them hope it works out for them

i notice you didnt mention the katy perry remix. probably for the best, best leave that to another thread..

[legend4ry]

As long as the big bods in the office don't start making people change their creative visions just to suit the advert/game/whatever I don't have a problem with hearing dubstep in TV or on a game...

To be fair most nights are full of complete mugs these days anyways so its not like theres much to keep secret, its already exposed into the club culture and to be fair thats more important than hearing a 30 second wobble bass on a advert...

[human?]

if it was just adverts & nike & mtv, standard industry things etc, it doesnt bother me.

what bothers me is red bull, scion, sparks etc...

cause they dont just use music to promote they shit, or score their whatever...

they fucking infiltrate and exploit culture in a very different way. and alot of people take their money. its nearly impossible to find a underground Hiphop or edm event that they do not have their hands on... its pretty fucking disgusting tbh


when you use the music to push your brand, its one thing, branding the music and culture is another beast entirely

[spiderman]

All the people I work with listen to absolute crap. Their taste sucks balls but would I play them dubstep no. Either you're of the mind looking for it or you're not. I think discussions like this have been on a loop for years and years whether it be dubstep, breakcore, jungle, techno, acid, house, electro, jazz fusion, pyschedelia or countless other genres.

yeah I've stopped showing people it now, I'm tired of being called a crackhead

hahahaha....




...on a real tho why do u listen to this crazy music u crackhead.

[spiderman]

this topic calls for a nice tall drink and some spare time.

loads of essays, but a good subject.

[bright maroon]

when you use the music to push your brand, its one thing, branding the music and culture is another beast entirely

Do you mean when a brand begins to control it - like sponsoring events and pushing artists they want to see, a hijack? or do you mean making it appear as though they are responsible for the existence of the entire subculture..?

Either way - someone is looking to cash in on a community..

Is it unreal to think that scenesters have infiltrated a huge corporation and are using it to provide? I'd say..

I personally wouldn't trust any huge corporation - to have a pet project, beyond marketing..

[skream]

yo reptillian, how long u been envolved in the "scene"?

[jackieboi]

i find this discussion fascinating simply because it's a dilemma i have thought a lot about.

i personally would not do music for certain corporations, simply because i would not feel comfortable having my music used to make them more money and exploit more people (nike being a prime example of that). HOWEVER, that is a PERSONAL choice, and not one that i expect anyone else to make. i have my own personal ethics, but they are mine, and one thing i learned long ago, is that i cannot expect everyone else to live by my personal ethical code. .

Those air bubbles arent going to pump themselves up.

[human?]

when you use the music to push your brand, its one thing, branding the music and culture is another beast entirely

Do you mean when a brand begins to control it - like sponsoring events and pushing artists they want to see, a hijack? or do you mean making it appear as though they are responsible for the existence of the entire subculture..?

Either way - someone is looking to cash in on a community..

Is it unreal to think that scenesters have infiltrated a huge corporation and are using it to provide?

I personally wouldn't trust any huge corporation - to have a pet project, beyond marketing..

its all such a grey area that its impossible to say. and there in lies the problem.

many of my friends have received nice chunks of $$ from redbull & scion. in a bunch of different ways.

thing is, what it all REALLY comes down to, is having that logo prominently displayed. perhaps there has been scenesters in the corporations, rather im SURE there ARE... its just, i highly doubt they are the ones doing the finance sheets at the end of the day.

with red bull & scion in particular, things imho, are out of control. and its fucked up too, because they DO do some fresh shit. like how good a idea is the red bull music academy? i think its really cool, but i still get insulted that its RED BULL music academy, cause i know somewhere some corporate asshole doesnt give a flying fuck about anything but the brand. not to mention what they push is poison.

and in Hiphop is so overwhelming its ridiculous.

i know of some horror stories too, well not HORROR, but def little bullshit things that the companies have done to try & influence how things are presented, while giving the illusion that they are just sponsers. because really, it ALL comes down to having that logo displayed...

ive been slightly alarmed at the balance that appears to have shifted in favor of the corporations, you CAN NOT find any events that are financed decently (around here at least) that arent sponsered by red bull or scion, and to a lesser degree sparks etc...

i was just performing at Scribble Jam (one of the larger Hiphop/Graffiti festivals in the US) and that shit was SCIONED the fuck out... and it pissed me off the whole time. and when i got back to queens, i saw the Scion dealership, and realized that if i was to go catch tags on their windows, or pull out a boombox & start breakdancing in the dealership, they would call the police and have me arrested... shit isnt Hiphop, even tho they try their damnedest to push it as such... they arent just USING my culture to push they shit, they are using their $$ to get up IN my culture, yet if i was to bring my culture to THEIR $$, id end up in jail...

i dunno, its all a personal thing really, but ive def committed myself to not take any of that redbull scion money, it feels real dirty right now...


*edit*
and dont get me wrong, im not knocking people who DO take the $. its really usually a pretty sweet deal, they tend to fork over nice amounts of $ with very little precondition... and i have alot of friends who work with them alot, and i still go to the shows and enjoy myself.. i just really wish we could do awesome shit WITHOUT they $... and we do, its just being imho, overwhelmed by this sponsered stuff...