Dubstepforum.com

mks wrote:We also like an excuse to party......

esfandyar wrote:Anything special go on with you lot for St. Patricks? I thought I would share this with you guys.

During the St. Patricks day parade here in Phoenix, a small contingent of individuals (including myself) participated in the parade and marched to show solidarity with the Irish, the Latino, and the indigenous community, describing why racism on migrants should not be tolerated. This message was aimed at a majority white population who were the audience of the parade.

Four hundred copies of this flier were distributed during this morning's annual St. Patrick's day parade in central Phoenix. The flier was handed out as a small group of 10 people marched in the parade with banners in support of migrants and regional indigenous struggles.



“Irish-American Solidarity” is a contingent of Irish-Americans and allies dedicated to solidarity and support for the indigenous people of this region, as well as the Latino immigrant communities in the greater Phoenix area. We march in this year’s St. Patrick’s Day to honor the legacy of the San Patricio Battalion, a group of Irish immigrants who escaped the Irish potato famine to the US, and ultimately became the symbols of Irish-Mexican solidarity after deserting the US army during the Mexican-American war.



Like an all too familiar contemporary immigrant narrative, the conscripted Irish soldiers faced racism from their nativist commanding officers and soldier counter parts, including denying them Sunday mass. When these new immigrant soldiers were then given orders to attack Mexican forces, they refused and deserted, instead fighting alongside the Mexican army against the US invasion. After the end of the war, many of the San Patricio were executed by the US army as traitors, but the legacy of their friendship and sacrifices resonated with so many Mexican people that they were not soon forgotten. 150 years later, it was a group of activists from Ireland who made the English language translations of statements and news from the Zapatista indigenous peasant uprising available on the internet, forcing the Mexican government to stop any repression.



The dual ugliness of the occupation by England, and the Irish potato famine made life unbearable for many poor Irish. In 1847, at the height of the famine, the Irish received a great gesture of support from the Chocktaw people, who raised $710, no small amount of money in the mid 1800s, to help starving Irish men, women, and kids. That this donation was collected after the brutal and deadly forced relocation of the Chocktaw to Oklahoma, known as the Trail of Tears, speaks volumes of the generosity of native peoples who recognized the crisis that Irish people faced.



As Irish-Americans, almost all of us are in the US as the result of England’s (continuing)colonial occupation, and yet we are also standing by as colonial attacks continue on the O’odham people, indigenous to this land we are on. Right now the O’odham face the partial destruction of their holy mountain of this area, many of us call it South Mountain, for the planned 202 freeway extension. This is the desecration of a sacred site. It was just a few years ago that there was a similar campaign in Ireland against the construction of a motorway through the valley of Tara, a world heritage site containing ancient burial grounds. This too was a desecration, and although the highway was eventually constructed, people resisted this development with civil disobedience, protest marches, and sabotage of building equipment.



We don’t need another roadway, our relatives in Ireland knew it, and our O’odham neighbors in Gila River know it too. Once again, it’s the politicians and corporations who want more progress, but what’s progressing other than the destruction of the earth and our health while they look for more profit? Is knocking 25 minutes off of a semi truck’s drive by bypassing Phoenix worth destroying part of south mountain and putting another environmental health hazard in an area where indigenous people will be most effected?



We fully extend our solidarity to the O’odham people further south in Arizona as well, to the effect that we too want an end to the militarization of Tohono O’odham lands that are divided by the US/Mexico border wall and occupied by Border Patrol and US military. We also want an end to all racist anti-immigrant laws aimed at migrants fleeing political and economic hardships. Irish history is a proud history of resistance to colonialism and oppression, and as Irish-Americans we should all be glad to carry on this tradition of solidarity and resistance to oppression.

drlego wrote:

esfandyar wrote:Anything special go on with you lot for St. Patricks? I thought I would share this with you guys.

During the St. Patricks day parade here in Phoenix, a small contingent of individuals (including myself) participated in the parade and marched to show solidarity with the Irish, the Latino, and the indigenous community, describing why racism on migrants should not be tolerated. This message was aimed at a majority white population who were the audience of the parade.

Four hundred copies of this flier were distributed during this morning's annual St. Patrick's day parade in central Phoenix. The flier was handed out as a small group of 10 people marched in the parade with banners in support of migrants and regional indigenous struggles.



“Irish-American Solidarity” is a contingent of Irish-Americans and allies dedicated to solidarity and support for the indigenous people of this region, as well as the Latino immigrant communities in the greater Phoenix area. We march in this year’s St. Patrick’s Day to honor the legacy of the San Patricio Battalion, a group of Irish immigrants who escaped the Irish potato famine to the US, and ultimately became the symbols of Irish-Mexican solidarity after deserting the US army during the Mexican-American war.



Like an all too familiar contemporary immigrant narrative, the conscripted Irish soldiers faced racism from their nativist commanding officers and soldier counter parts, including denying them Sunday mass. When these new immigrant soldiers were then given orders to attack Mexican forces, they refused and deserted, instead fighting alongside the Mexican army against the US invasion. After the end of the war, many of the San Patricio were executed by the US army as traitors, but the legacy of their friendship and sacrifices resonated with so many Mexican people that they were not soon forgotten. 150 years later, it was a group of activists from Ireland who made the English language translations of statements and news from the Zapatista indigenous peasant uprising available on the internet, forcing the Mexican government to stop any repression.



The dual ugliness of the occupation by England, and the Irish potato famine made life unbearable for many poor Irish. In 1847, at the height of the famine, the Irish received a great gesture of support from the Chocktaw people, who raised $710, no small amount of money in the mid 1800s, to help starving Irish men, women, and kids. That this donation was collected after the brutal and deadly forced relocation of the Chocktaw to Oklahoma, known as the Trail of Tears, speaks volumes of the generosity of native peoples who recognized the crisis that Irish people faced.



As Irish-Americans, almost all of us are in the US as the result of England’s (continuing)colonial occupation, and yet we are also standing by as colonial attacks continue on the O’odham people, indigenous to this land we are on. Right now the O’odham face the partial destruction of their holy mountain of this area, many of us call it South Mountain, for the planned 202 freeway extension. This is the desecration of a sacred site. It was just a few years ago that there was a similar campaign in Ireland against the construction of a motorway through the valley of Tara, a world heritage site containing ancient burial grounds. This too was a desecration, and although the highway was eventually constructed, people resisted this development with civil disobedience, protest marches, and sabotage of building equipment.



We don’t need another roadway, our relatives in Ireland knew it, and our O’odham neighbors in Gila River know it too. Once again, it’s the politicians and corporations who want more progress, but what’s progressing other than the destruction of the earth and our health while they look for more profit? Is knocking 25 minutes off of a semi truck’s drive by bypassing Phoenix worth destroying part of south mountain and putting another environmental health hazard in an area where indigenous people will be most effected?



We fully extend our solidarity to the O’odham people further south in Arizona as well, to the effect that we too want an end to the militarization of Tohono O’odham lands that are divided by the US/Mexico border wall and occupied by Border Patrol and US military. We also want an end to all racist anti-immigrant laws aimed at migrants fleeing political and economic hardships. Irish history is a proud history of resistance to colonialism and oppression, and as Irish-Americans we should all be glad to carry on this tradition of solidarity and resistance to oppression.

Do you plan to lobby the American government to give back more land to Native Americans?

.onelove. wrote:'England out of Ireland'

ffs the ignorance of it all actually angers me, have you ever actually met a Northern Irish person? Or is all this angsty anger directed at the English a result of pseudo Irish-American patriotic rock songs?

.onelove. wrote:'England out of Ireland'

ffs the ignorance of it all actually angers me, have you ever actually met a Northern Irish person? Or is all this angsty anger directed at the English a result of pseudo Irish-American patriotic rock songs?

esfandyar wrote:I said my piece earlier and I refuse to argue further on the Internet. We have out opinions, I think the connections we made are valid.

esfandyar wrote:I said my piece earlier and I refuse to argue further on the Internet. We have out opinions, I think the connections we made are valid.

esfandyar wrote:b] if we were say sitting together and discussing these events face to face i think it would make much more sense for all of us.[/b] its the medium of communication i find to be rather difficult to interpret at times. no tone of voice, no non-verbal communication to aid our points.

noam wrote: a) i reckon if you were sat down face to face with some of the people on here, by their reactions, and things i've witnessed before i doubt 'seeing sense' is what would be happening...

noam wrote: b) the medium of communication on the internet draws a level playing field, you take away any outside influence and mitigating factor when you are critiquing someone's argument.

noam wrote: you asked someone before to 'go read a book' then you blame written, non-verbal communication for your inability to convince people of the validity of your belief??

noam wrote: knowing a fair few northern irish myself, and having seen a fair few 'flair ups' - a lot of them over very, very petty issues, i suggest that you take your banner to northern ireland and see directly what response you get. i think that would be more enlightening than anything anyone on here could say to you.

esfandyar wrote: but these guys seem to know so much and i am ready to hear what they have to say.

.onelove. wrote:

esfandyar wrote: but these guys seem to know so much and i am ready to hear what they have to say.

You're not though, you dodged all the points posed to you and made some sort of feeble retort citing you didn't want to discuss it any further.

Lets get one thing straight, I'd wager a large number of these 'Irish people' you encounter are anything but. Just because you may well be descended from an Irishman hundreds of years back does not make you one, a lot of people in Ireland actually have a lot of resentment for these what they deem as 'plastic paddies'. These Irish Americans are not at all representative of the opinion of the real residents of Ireland, all you're doing is drumming up fake patriotism.

Now, you don't necessarily have to know of any Northern Irish personally, but please be aware that an overwhelming majority WANT British rule. What gives you the right to demand their independence when it's not in the population's interest? Why do you think you know better than they do?

Seriously, promoting foreign hate and sectarianism as a way of encouraging unity in your own country is utterly repugnant.

esfandyar wrote: and just because the majority of the population there thinks britain is a good thing, does not mean that is what everyone wants. most of the time i find strengths within minority opinions anyways. majority opinions often are those shared by the fascist or the capitalist, which is a part of this very complicated topic we are arguing about- the fact that colonialism and capitalism intertwine to erase these memories and events from the irish so no more bloodshed occurs. no surprise there.

esfandyar wrote: patriotism has nothing to do with what we were trying to bring as a message. in fact all of us there would classify ourselves as very un-patriotic. so no fake patriotism there.. we were demonstrating the exploitations the colonialist english placed upon north ireland. again the banner says "AGAINST COLONIALISM" not hey irish lets get patriotic and nationalistic. unfortunately the english did murder and slaughter and rape many many irish during its colonial invasion. that should not be forgotten. not sure what to tell you besides you are confusing the message.

.onelove. wrote:

esfandyar wrote: and just because the majority of the population there thinks britain is a good thing, does not mean that is what everyone wants. most of the time i find strengths within minority opinions anyways. majority opinions often are those shared by the fascist or the capitalist, which is a part of this very complicated topic we are arguing about- the fact that colonialism and capitalism intertwine to erase these memories and events from the irish so no more bloodshed occurs. no surprise there.

So fuck what the people living there actually want, hand them over to the rule of a republic they don't identify with? That's what you're implying. What benefit is it to Northern Ireland to separate from Britain? Facts would suggest they actually receive a whole lot more than what they provide. Your argument is utterly senseless, fighting a cause that none of the 'victims' actually want.

.onelove. wrote:

esfandyar wrote: patriotism has nothing to do with what we were trying to bring as a message. in fact all of us there would classify ourselves as very un-patriotic. so no fake patriotism there.. we were demonstrating the exploitations the colonialist english placed upon north ireland. again the banner says "AGAINST COLONIALISM" not hey irish lets get patriotic and nationalistic. unfortunately the english did murder and slaughter and rape many many irish during its colonial invasion. that should not be forgotten. not sure what to tell you besides you are confusing the message.

No invasions were gentlemanly and without bloodshed ffs. Are you telling me the United States took Native American land without causing their own atrocities? No? Then why the fuck don't you focus your attention on that instead. What is this 'ENGLISH OUT OF IRELAND' message actually aiming to achieving, how is it even relevant to the problems you're trying to address? All it's doing is habouring resentment against a group of people for an invasion that happened hundreds of years ago.

YES, the British have done some absolutely terrible things to the Irish, no-ones denying that. But believe it or not there's no current 'occupation' of Ireland, and the Northern Irish people are quite content being under British rule. If they weren't, they'd be the first to raise an issue about it, not someone thousands of miles away with a very naive and poor understanding of the political climate.