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garethom wrote:

Muncey wrote: If a Romanian comes over and can't speak English but is more qualified than you at your job, you fully deserve to fail.

Again, I don't agree with this. This presumes that companies will only look at the best person for the job, and not look at getting slightly less qualified or simply more people for a lot less money as part of cost cutting exercises.

If my company cut me, and got in a guy from India (a lot of the dudes at my company are on 2 year placements from India anyway), who was less qualified than I am, but would do the job for half the salary I do and do it to an acceptable standard, I'd be pretty fucking offended if somebody told me I deserved to "fail" for expecting a fair market wage.

Then again, if they're half as qualified and can do it as well as you, then why shouldn't they have the job?

wub wrote:TBH Jay, of all the points that have been made against UKIP, the figures provided, the reports showing where they're taking liberties with their numbers to make things look worse than they are, the well made arguments against them, you haven't provided any decent responses and have just come back with more nationalist rhetoric about the problems caused by "them".

Which is precisely what Farage and UKIP do anyway.

So you provided figures which don't neccessarily count for much in the grand scheme of things. You showed they have crooked former members. So what? I think every party was guilty as charged in the expenses scandal (in fact I know because I studied it for my degree) yeah my posts may shout "nationalistic rhetroric" but mass immigration to the UK is fundamentally detrimental to the working and lower middle classes and if anything can be done to stop it at the radical rate it's happening then I'll argue passionately. Yes I am patriotic, no I'm not racist, where have I said I'm against British Asians or British blacks or Jews? I've argued tactfully against in part a torrent of one liners and abuse and stlll (and let's put the immigration issues aside and look at the economic ones for a second) the parties policies resonate with me particularly the Bedroom Tax one and the no tax for minimum wage, yeah the majority can sit in your middle class bubbles or bleat as a non British person who doesn't know how hard it is living in this country, but at the end of the day I know if I was to vote in 2015, then UKIP are the only safe bet. I would never vote Tory scum, disillusiooned by Labour although I live in a Labour stronghold and come from a Labour-voting family. I hear Farage annihilated Clegg? And did you read that article? First page

jesslem wrote:

garethom wrote:

Muncey wrote: If a Romanian comes over and can't speak English but is more qualified than you at your job, you fully deserve to fail.

Again, I don't agree with this. This presumes that companies will only look at the best person for the job, and not look at getting slightly less qualified or simply more people for a lot less money as part of cost cutting exercises.

If my company cut me, and got in a guy from India (a lot of the dudes at my company are on 2 year placements from India anyway), who was less qualified than I am, but would do the job for half the salary I do and do it to an acceptable standard, I'd be pretty fucking offended if somebody told me I deserved to "fail" for expecting a fair market wage.

Then again, if they're half as qualified and can do it as well as you, then why shouldn't they have the job?

They should then look for a British born person with the neccessary qualifications who works just as well.

jesslem wrote:

garethom wrote:

Muncey wrote: If a Romanian comes over and can't speak English but is more qualified than you at your job, you fully deserve to fail.

Again, I don't agree with this. This presumes that companies will only look at the best person for the job, and not look at getting slightly less qualified or simply more people for a lot less money as part of cost cutting exercises.

If my company cut me, and got in a guy from India (a lot of the dudes at my company are on 2 year placements from India anyway), who was less qualified than I am, but would do the job for half the salary I do and do it to an acceptable standard, I'd be pretty fucking offended if somebody told me I deserved to "fail" for expecting a fair market wage.

Then again, if they're half as qualified and can do it as well as you, then why shouldn't they have the job?

That is exactly what I didn't say.

The argument presumes that companies are ONLY interested in quality of work. If they could have a job done 75% as well for 50% of the cost, they might well do, and I know for a fact that companies HAVE done that.

Companies are well within their rights to give the job to whoever they like, but if somebody came up and told me that I deserved to fail because I was on the market rate and expected more money than somebody who couldn't do the job as well as I could, I'd be pissed off.

That's all.

No one has made the most important point yet

Why? Because you've been 'British' longer than they have?
I'd hire someone who could do as good of a job as somebody else who's allegedly better than they are at the job as a matter of principle. Better investment over time since they'll only get better.

I wasn't saying they should have it, I was asking why you should.

jesslem wrote:I wasn't saying they should have it, I was asking why you should.

Presume you're talking to me?

I don't think I should or shouldn't, that's up to companies to decide. I was only addressing the people saying that "if somebody from xyz who can't speak english can take your job, you deserve to fail". That's the only thing I had an issue with.

Don't take this too personally Gareth, I only want to get at Jaydot's idea that national standards should be lowered to account for his inadequacy.

garethom wrote: That is exactly what I didn't say.

The argument presumes that companies are ONLY interested in quality of work. If they could have a job done 75% as well for 50% of the cost, they might well do, and I know for a fact that companies HAVE done that.

Companies are well within their rights to give the job to whoever they like, but if somebody came up and told me that I deserved to fail because I was on the market rate and expected more money than somebody who couldn't do the job as well as I could, I'd be pissed off.

That's all.

If a company can get 75% of the talent for 50% of the cost why shouldn't they?

I get that your objection is to the idea that you've failed but I don't really think the comment was directed at people in your position who are doing good work and are replaced by poorer, more that in the case Jaydot is attempting to make low skilled workers are being replaced by cheaper low skilled workers.

Muncey wrote:

jaydot wrote:And yeah I can't control the fact that I'm British but I am and I don't want to live in a society where I have to live like a second class citizen just because the government couldn't control immigration.

You mean you'd be a first class citizen but all those brain surgeon Romanians have come over and taken all the top jobs pushing you into a second class job?

Unfortunately you're subject to a great country with a great education system which you've clearly not taken advantage of and you're being replaced by people who, more times that not, have fuck all.

I have taken advantage of it I went to a Russell Group university.

And you're talking highly skilled jobs, let's be honest how many Romanian brain surgeons are there? Realistically they're low skilled, so will be taking factory work etc for cheap labour, denying one of us the job, And all the while the British youth gets marginalised.

southstar wrote:No one has made the most important point yet

The floor is yours.

jaydot wrote:Yes I am patriotic, no I'm not racist, where have I said I'm against British Asians or British blacks or Jews? I've argued tactfully against in part a torrent of one liners and abuse and stlll (and let's put the immigration issues aside and look at the economic ones for a second) the parties policies resonate with me particularly the Bedroom Tax one and the no tax for minimum wage

I don't think anyone has said the Bedroom tax is a bad thing, and as Mags pointed out the no tax on minimum wage is pointless as the threshold is £10k already.

jaydot wrote:as a non British person who doesn't know how hard it is living in this country

Yeah, wonder what it's actually like to live as a non native in another EU country

jaydot wrote:And did you read that article? First page

That's not an article, that's an opinion piece. It contains no fact, only opinion. Which applies to most of your comments in this thread, TBH.



Are you employed at the moment or still studying?

jesslem wrote:

southstar wrote:No one has made the most important point yet

The floor is yours.

When we get rid of Cam'ron, it would be a shame to replace him with an even more smug, unbearable face

jaydot wrote:

Muncey wrote:

jaydot wrote:And yeah I can't control the fact that I'm British but I am and I don't want to live in a society where I have to live like a second class citizen just because the government couldn't control immigration.

You mean you'd be a first class citizen but all those brain surgeon Romanians have come over and taken all the top jobs pushing you into a second class job?

Unfortunately you're subject to a great country with a great education system which you've clearly not taken advantage of and you're being replaced by people who, more times that not, have fuck all.

I went to a Russell Group university.

Not a valid point unless you're in a Research based field.

jaydot wrote:Realistically they're low skilled, so will be taking factory work etc for cheap labour, denying one of us the job, And all the while the British youth gets marginalised.

I do agree that curbing immigration would probably be a "quick fix" for youth unemployment, which is looking a bit dire at the moment. Not sure on the long term implications though.

wub wrote:

jaydot wrote:Yes I am patriotic, no I'm not racist, where have I said I'm against British Asians or British blacks or Jews? I've argued tactfully against in part a torrent of one liners and abuse and stlll (and let's put the immigration issues aside and look at the economic ones for a second) the parties policies resonate with me particularly the Bedroom Tax one and the no tax for minimum wage

I don't think anyone has said the Bedroom tax is a bad thing, and as Mags pointed out the no tax on minimum wage is pointless as the threshold is £10k already.

jaydot wrote:as a non British person who doesn't know how hard it is living in this country

Yeah, wonder what it's actually like to live as a non native in another EU country

jaydot wrote:And did you read that article? First page

That's not an article, that's an opinion piece. It contains no fact, only opinion. Which applies to most of your comments in this thread, TBH.



Are you employed at the moment or still studying?

Was at uni but dropped out due to ill health, on sickness benefits atm. Are you gonna tell me I'm a shirker and all my points are redundant now?

you know somebody's gonna tell you that you haven't paid into the pot before taking out

garethom wrote:

jaydot wrote:Realistically they're low skilled, so will be taking factory work etc for cheap labour, denying one of us the job, And all the while the British youth gets marginalised.

I do agree that curbing immigration would probably be a "quick fix" for youth unemployment, which is looking a bit dire at the moment. Not sure on the long term implications though.

It would restore some much needed confidence, I know plenty of people who went down the wrong path because the options weren't there/were limited post-school.

jaydot wrote: Was at uni but dropped out due to ill health, on sickness benefits atm. Are you gonna tell me I'm a shirker and all my points are redundant now?

I'm not but I am going to ask do you consider that you would deny people the same benefits who've paid 4 years of contributions towards them?

garethom wrote:you know somebody's gonna tell you that you haven't paid into the pot before taking out

Yeah