Millbank student demo just got real

[noam]

with regards to your last parapgraph at university your aren't paying for the tuition wholly, you're paying for access. in leeds you have access to the largest university library in the country.

university provides a higher level of education and learning than other institutions, its irrelevant if you can do it in your own time.

no one is saying its the only way of learning, i wish people would read the whole thread first, both me and pimp have covered those issues already.

you're contradicting yourself, you said university is seen as the only form of employment but in your previous post you said workplace experience is valued more and those with it are more employable. which is it?

[xarcane]

In Poland university is free so getting even a remotely decent job is practically impossible without one. Sound familiar?

sounds very good actually

but of course not as good as making education a luxury

dark ages ffw

alien pimp

I don't think anyone's saying that.
Everyone's forgetting that all uni places are ALREADY oversubscribed. This means that every year those unlucky ones that don't get in have essentially had their career prospects ruined. The idea of making the places slightly more exclusive (based on merit not any social factor) is a way of increasing the employment validity of people who havn't got a degree. Increasing trade contracts/apprenticeships at the same time for anyone who doesn't lke the idea of going to uni seems fairer overall?

In terms of fees, I don't think anyone apart from the very very rich can afford uni, even now. Fee increases don't make that much of a difference... this is why there's student loans, which are held until later in life when you can pay part off (a percentage of your wage depending on how much you earn). The percentage difference is going to be minor and you get a worthwhile degree. At the same time people who don't go to uni are classed as more employable due to more worthwhile experience. I don't particularly agree with the fee increases and don't want the extra debt, but I can see why they're doing it. It's not fair that they try to gain back the economic loss (caused by the mistakes of the past 15 or so years) through the only people possibly able to afford it (a much easier target than businesses). It's not right but it's politics. To gain anything, you have to play along. I don't agree with it but that doesn't stop it being the way it is.
...I'd agree with the protests if they were marching for the extra taxation of banks and large buisnesses instead and providing a solution to the issue. As it stands these marches didn't do much but discredit the cause they were marching for..

i see where you're coming from and your posts are always quality
but i can't agree to this point: they're already rich, raising uni taxes is just like taxing more the rich
i personally know not so wealthy people who's families made great efforts to get them educated, for them every 100 pounds is a difference and can ruin things
but can't buy that this measure will make a difference for the budget or anything. it's nothing for the budget, it's everything for some people
so the only results i can foresee is more uneducated people, uk importing even more intelligence, and more uk students abroad, feeding the budgets of other countries
if the fees are already to high, then you should've been even before this shit in the streets marching for affordable education

and yeah, education should not be seen only like training for a job, this is very very very wrong!

alien pimp

I know what you mean, but I never said students were already rich. I can't technically afford uni but I'm still here. The concept of student loans/grants (which I believe are being increased for lower income families) is to take off the monetary pressure until you have a well paid job, that way the pressure is taken off the student and their family until such time as they can afford it. I know this isn't always the case though, which is a problem. On either side though they have to increase student loans in accordance with increasing fees, which should negligate the fee increase in these terms.
Saying that, I do agree that the largest fee changes are a bit extortionate and in regard to the fact that Scotland still has free university (charged to all British taxpayers) even if they study in England, it's a bit far, and I don't agree with the lowering of fees for over-seas students.

Theoretically education shouldn't only be seen in relation to getting a job but don't you think that's the main point? You get a degree to be able to work in an area you enjoy for the rest of your life. Society as it is at the moment demands you work (unless you're on social security), isn't the point of getting a good degree to help you get a good job you don't hate? I know most students I know say they're at uni to get a good job.. I havn't heard many, if any, say it's because they believe in the principle of education (until these demonstrations came about and suddenly it became an issue).
Unfortunately there's a massive problem in our country in that a rising number of young people don't care about education. If it was that important to most people, don't you think our high school grades would be higher, the x-factor viewing rates a bit lower? A society issue (which needs to be solved) regarding lack of interest in education, isn't going to be fixed by forcing students into uni courses they're not particularly interested in, and telling those that can't get into uni that they're now essentially worthless.

At university it's not as if you are being "educated" per se, you are just given 3 years of free time in which you are essentially expected to teach yourself. I have maybe 8 hours lectures a week. That isn't exactly being "taught". If knowledge and learning is something you prize in life (which a lot of people don't, having other goals), wouldn't you do this anyway? I know I still research into subjects that interest me despite not being officially "taught" them..
I also don't agree with the fact that academic learning at uni is also seen as the only form of "education". You'd probably get "taught" more on an apprenticeship scheme than you do at uni. Life experience is education. It simply depends on what you want to do with life, you shouldn't limit that to only being possible in university. What happens if people don't want to go to uni, or aren't suited to the self taught structure. I don't think it's fair that they should automatically be discriminated against (which is what is happening at the moment) because getting some degree wasn't suited to them.

[xarcane]

Honestly though, do you really reckon having a large amount of debt saddled on your shoulders is not going to affect your life after university? You're going to be paying rent, tax, transport and paying back your loan. If you're unfortunate enough to come from an impoverished area - you can't just do the middle-class thing and just move back in with your parents. You're not going to be able to get a mortgage, or a loan, especially if you're earning under 21k.

If you're earning over 21k, you'll still be paying off the loan + rent, tax and transport. It's effectively going to freeze the social strata in the same way the US have frozen theirs, even if you do get a good job. You're not gonna be able to make a decent savings account or a buy a house until the age you're thinking about children and then that will drain your finances even further. The Tories are just trying to fuck the poor again, and everyone knows it.

[noam]

exactly, resulting in whats happening in america now (maybe due to other reasons though) which is the loss of the middle class. theres an american economist, cant remember her name right now, who cited the loss of the middle class in america as one of the most impending threats to their economic situation in years to come.

here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

[mickey raus]

In Poland university is free so getting even a remotely decent job is practically impossible without one. Sound familiar?

sounds very good actually

but of course not as good as making education a luxury

dark ages ffw

alien pimp

I don't think anyone's saying that.
Everyone's forgetting that all uni places are ALREADY oversubscribed. This means that every year those unlucky ones that don't get in have essentially had their career prospects ruined. The idea of making the places slightly more exclusive (based on merit not any social factor) is a way of increasing the employment validity of people who havn't got a degree. Increasing trade contracts/apprenticeships at the same time for anyone who doesn't lke the idea of going to uni seems fairer overall?

In terms of fees, I don't think anyone apart from the very very rich can afford uni, even now. Fee increases don't make that much of a difference... this is why there's student loans, which are held until later in life when you can pay part off (a percentage of your wage depending on how much you earn). The percentage difference is going to be minor and you get a worthwhile degree. At the same time people who don't go to uni are classed as more employable due to more worthwhile experience. I don't particularly agree with the fee increases and don't want the extra debt, but I can see why they're doing it. It's not fair that they try to gain back the economic loss (caused by the mistakes of the past 15 or so years) through the only people possibly able to afford it (a much easier target than businesses). It's not right but it's politics. To gain anything, you have to play along. I don't agree with it but that doesn't stop it being the way it is.
...I'd agree with the protests if they were marching for the extra taxation of banks and large buisnesses instead and providing a solution to the issue. As it stands these marches didn't do much but discredit the cause they were marching for..

i see where you're coming from and your posts are always quality
but i can't agree to this point: they're already rich, raising uni taxes is just like taxing more the rich
i personally know not so wealthy people who's families made great efforts to get them educated, for them every 100 pounds is a difference and can ruin things
but can't buy that this measure will make a difference for the budget or anything. it's nothing for the budget, it's everything for some people
so the only results i can foresee is more uneducated people, uk importing even more intelligence, and more uk students abroad, feeding the budgets of other countries
if the fees are already to high, then you should've been even before this shit in the streets marching for affordable education

and yeah, education should not be seen only like training for a job, this is very very very wrong!

alien pimp

I know what you mean, but I never said students were already rich. I can't technically afford uni but I'm still here. The concept of student loans/grants (which I believe are being increased for lower income families) is to take off the monetary pressure until you have a well paid job, that way the pressure is taken off the student and their family until such time as they can afford it. I know this isn't always the case though, which is a problem. On either side though they have to increase student loans in accordance with increasing fees, which should negligate the fee increase in these terms.
Saying that, I do agree that the largest fee changes are a bit extortionate and in regard to the fact that Scotland still has free university (charged to all British taxpayers) even if they study in England, it's a bit far, and I don't agree with the lowering of fees for over-seas students.

Theoretically education shouldn't only be seen in relation to getting a job but don't you think that's the main point? You get a degree to be able to work in an area you enjoy for the rest of your life. Society as it is at the moment demands you work (unless you're on social security), isn't the point of getting a good degree to help you get a good job you don't hate? I know most students I know say they're at uni to get a good job.. I havn't heard many, if any, say it's because they believe in the principle of education (until these demonstrations came about and suddenly it became an issue).
Unfortunately there's a massive problem in our country in that a rising number of young people don't care about education. If it was that important to most people, don't you think our high school grades would be higher, the x-factor viewing rates a bit lower? A society issue (which needs to be solved) regarding lack of interest in education, isn't going to be fixed by forcing students into uni courses they're not particularly interested in, and telling those that can't get into uni that they're now essentially worthless.

At university it's not as if you are being "educated" per se, you are just given 3 years of free time in which you are essentially expected to teach yourself. I have maybe 8 hours lectures a week. That isn't exactly being "taught". If knowledge and learning is something you prize in life (which a lot of people don't, having other goals), wouldn't you do this anyway? I know I still research into subjects that interest me despite not being officially "taught" them..
I also don't agree with the fact that academic learning at uni is also seen as the only form of "education". You'd probably get "taught" more on an apprenticeship scheme than you do at uni. Life experience is education. It simply depends on what you want to do with life, you shouldn't limit that to only being possible in university. What happens if people don't want to go to uni, or aren't suited to the self taught structure. I don't think it's fair that they should automatically be discriminated against (which is what is happening at the moment) because getting some degree wasn't suited to them.

what i can get from here is things are even much more fucked up than i knew...
the whole education system seems fake, sick and needing a reboot
main principle should be: get as many people as much education as possible
but nobody wants us to know shit

[mickey raus]

exactly, resulting in whats happening in america now (maybe due to other reasons though) which is the loss of the middle class. theres an american economist, cant remember her name right now, who cited the loss of the middle class in america as one of the most impending threats to their economic situation in years to come.

here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

this too

[the acid never lies]

It's not all about higher education, it's about further education too. People always leave that out and FE is always the first to get shat on. EMA which gives students a grant of up to 30 quid a week (with the condition that students do well and have 95% attendance) is being scrapped altogether. What is more, if funding is cut to these places chances are they will go under or be bought out by the highest bidder.

I know the point is being hammered but as far as the arts, humanities and social sciences are concerned, it shouldn't be the role of a few privileged specialists to interpret the world and articulate or challenge its values. In the words of Malcolm X: ‎"Education is the passport to the future, for tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today"

Education should be open to all and training or skilling is a separate issue - the two should not be conflated.

[64hz]

EMA which gives students a grant of up to 30 quid a week (with the condition that students do well and have 95% attendance) is being scrapped altogether.

oh no way...£30 ema was near perfect for an eighth/baccy/skins every weekend. ah the younger generations gonna have it hard.

[wubstep]

EMA which gives students a grant of up to 30 quid a week (with the condition that students do well and have 95% attendance) is being scrapped altogether.

oh no way...£30 ema was near perfect for an eighth/baccy/skins every weekend. ah the younger generations gonna have it hard.

Excessive Marijuana Allowance, dunkoooo.

[mickey raus]

I know the point is being hammered but as far as the arts, humanities and social sciences are concerned, it shouldn't be the role of a few privileged specialists to interpret the world and articulate or challenge its values. In the words of Malcolm X: ‎"Education is the passport to the future, for tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today"

Education should be open to all and training or skilling is a separate issue - the two should not be conflated.

what amazes me is that the point wasn't actually hammered enough... :/
alien pimp

[xarcane]

Fuck EMA, it's a bit ridiculous when under-18s get free transport and all. All you got were a load of, lets just say, untalented students taking joke courses in childcare and hairdressing and shit. No lie, I know a chick that did make-up at college, like... how to put on make-up. She come to the pub with her friend all done up and was like "I got an A!" - I was fucking disgusted. I don't care if they wanna learn it, but that crap cannot be funded by the taxpayer.

[64hz]

EMA which gives students a grant of up to 30 quid a week (with the condition that students do well and have 95% attendance) is being scrapped altogether.

oh no way...£30 ema was near perfect for an eighth/baccy/skins every weekend. ah the younger generations gonna have it hard.

Excessive Marijuana Allowance, dunkoooo.

why, in the whole 2 years of 6th form, did i never think of this

[Kochari]

Fuck EMA, it's a bit ridiculous when under-18s get free transport and all.

?

[xarcane]

Fuck EMA, it's a bit ridiculous when under-18s get free transport and all.

?

Might just be in London.

[the acid never lies]

All you got were a load of, lets just say, untalented students taking joke courses in childcare and hairdressing and shit

This is frankly bigoted and uninformed - FE deserves far more credit than you give it.

I'm not gonna turn this into a lecture online forums aren't exactly the best format to have political discussions but I will say this: there is no reason why you should feel the burden of publicly funded education for all, if only the rich paid their fair share of tax. This isn't really that radical - it's estimated that there are about 95 billion pounds of tax that is avoided or evaded in this country. This is before we start talking about land reform, funding unjust wars, or the fact that we bailed out the banks and they have absolutely no responsibility to the public or to public works despite the fact that many are practically nationalised!

Instead of taking part in a race to the bottom, we should all be making demands. People are already beginning to recognise their shared collective goals and demonstrations like the one which took place on wednesday are crucial in giving people the confidence to start realising those goals. This doesn't just give students confidence but anyone who is being squeezed, bullied and demoralised in their workplace.

Okay I promised it wouldn't turn into a lecture... shoot me. I'm sure you're sound in person but this I'm alright Jack attitude really gets under my skin. None of us are alright, let's do something about it eh?

Just to end on a dramatic note, here's a poem I like:

First they came for the Communists,
and I did not speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I did not speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I did not speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up for me.

Divide and conquer: don't fall for it.

[the acid never lies]

I need to find betters ways of venting - maybe I should have broken a window or two myself!

[nowaysj]

Well, as a former middle class American, straddled with $100k in student loan debt, and no job after graduating top 15% in my advanced degree, I can emphatically tell you Brits, you do not want your education system to resemble America's in any way.

[kay]

I'm not personally bothered about this one way or other (paid foreign fees which were more than 3x local students were paying as it was free back then, exchange rate issues, blah blah blah), but I do think that if raising fees made students think a little bit more about what they want to be educated in before the grab the first random easy degree that comes their way, then it will be an improvement.

I don't think the majority of Uni students value their degrees these days. Many are doing it just coz. It certainly isn't helping the need to get students into science and engineering. But then again, the school curriculum's so shot up anyway that persuading more people to go into those fields is going to take years to sort out. I'd rather people mobilise about that.

Don't even get me started on degrees for make-up and hairdressing. Things like that should be strictly apprenticing-style education where they learn on the job.

[the acid never lies]

This idea about incentivising young people to think a bit harder before entering university by saddling them with debt strikes me as paternalistic and elitist. Who are you to say that the majority of people in higher and further education have no business being there in the first place? By all means we should improve teaching at school level and make up for the lack of emphasis on engineering and the sciences in schools - this is a separate issue surely and not mutually exclusive to the principle of education for all.

Of course, this isn't just about fees. Many people have a problem with the idea of higher education is being marketised to the point that institutions are going to have to compete with one another even more to recruit students as funding is transferred to the individual 'consumer'. Institutions (or courses for that matter) which fail to attract capital will of course go under unless some dashing entrepreneur in shining armour decides to save it. Beyond the obvious fact that the positives of education cannot simply be measured in pound coins, this spells the end of independent research and opens the door to vested interests. I don't want some Marlboro sponsored research team telling me why smoking is actually good for me!

[the acid never lies]

To lighten the mood a little bit:

Paul O'Grady shows solidarity with the 'Millbank Rioters' (skip to 3:20)



And in other news: National Day of Mourning declared for windows of Millbank Tower