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garethom wrote:

Muncey wrote: If a Romanian comes over and can't speak English but is more qualified than you at your job, you fully deserve to fail.

Again, I don't agree with this. This presumes that companies will only look at the best person for the job, and not look at getting slightly less qualified or simply more people for a lot less money as part of cost cutting exercises.

If my company cut me, and got in a guy from India (a lot of the dudes at my company are on 2 year placements from India anyway), who was less qualified than I am, but would do the job for half the salary I do and do it to an acceptable standard, I'd be pretty fucking offended if somebody told me I deserved to "fail" for expecting a fair market wage.

But I wasn't on about that scenario and in no way was I saying you deserve to fail because a company is willing to accept a lower standard of work due to cost cuts.

I was on about the scenario when foreigners come over and CAN do the work to your ability or even better, without even speaking the language. In that scenario why should you receive special help because you was born here? If a Romanian with no money, very little education and can barely speak the language IS as qualified as you at your job or they're better.. they deserve your job and you don't. (deserve to fail may have come across a bit strong).

I agree with your scenario but thats to do with companies and it makes no difference on immigration, its like if they get someone with half your qualifications or skills who is British to do your job for half the price... agreed this scenario is more common with foreigners but its not exclusively an immigration issue, its to do with companies profit maximizing.

jaydot wrote:Was at uni but dropped out due to ill health, on sickness benefits atm. Are you gonna tell me I'm a shirker and all my points are redundant now?

Do you spend any of your benefits on cigarettes or alcohol? If so, UKIP have some bad news for you;

Ukip plans to stop benefit claimants buying tobacco and alcohol

garethom wrote:you know somebody's gonna tell you that you haven't paid into the pot before taking out

Also, this.

jaydot wrote:

Muncey wrote:

jaydot wrote:And yeah I can't control the fact that I'm British but I am and I don't want to live in a society where I have to live like a second class citizen just because the government couldn't control immigration.

You mean you'd be a first class citizen but all those brain surgeon Romanians have come over and taken all the top jobs pushing you into a second class job?

Unfortunately you're subject to a great country with a great education system which you've clearly not taken advantage of and you're being replaced by people who, more times that not, have fuck all.

I have taken advantage of it I went to a Russell Group university.

And you're talking highly skilled jobs, let's be honest how many Romanian brain surgeons are there? Realistically they're low skilled, so will be taking factory work etc for cheap labour, denying one of us the job, And all the while the British youth gets marginalised.

So you're argue as a person who doesn't work in those jobs while lecturing us about how we know nothing about working class struggles.

My dad's business employs about 60 people or so, he pays really well for factory work so he doesn't get rubbish people but in the last 5 years or so,he's employing more eastern european workers than brits for 2 reasons. Firstly he gets less applications from Brits, and they're usually worse applications. Secondly the brits he has employed have quit or have been let go within the probation period cos they can't hack the work. You complain about immigration being the problem when from my perspective it's more about young british people expect to be given jobs and other people will work harder for it.

This doesn't go for high skilled labour as much I feel but I don't really have an insight except as an employee.

You talk about "them" taking jobs, they earned them by being the best for the job at the time. Being british doesn't give you the right to a job.

wub wrote:

jaydot wrote:Was at uni but dropped out due to ill health, on sickness benefits atm. Are you gonna tell me I'm a shirker and all my points are redundant now?

Do you spend any of your benefits on cigarettes or alcohol? If so, UKIP have some bad news for you;

.

No.

garethom wrote:you know somebody's gonna tell you that you haven't paid into the pot before taking out

Ironically, another argument that comes from the 'why should they get my' bragade.

Why are you entitled to take out of the pot if you haven't paid in, but someone who has been working for 4yrs who isn't from this country isn't?

You know how he's gonna answer wubsie

So you're argue as a person who doesn't work in those jobs while lecturing us about how we know nothing about working class struggles

That would be career politicians in a nutshell then.

seriously tho


immigration is barely a factor, if at all, in the unemployment problem in western countries i reckon

truth is the factory/low skilled jobs jaydot is talking about have been destroyed long ago (cf the thatcher years i mentioned earlier in the thread) and the few that havent been outsourced yet to countries where labor is cheap will eventually be completely destroyed by technological progress...

how about we stop with that propaganda that full employment will ever be a thing again?
what if the fact technology allows us to not HAVE TO work anymore and yet all live comfortable lives (and i do mean all) isn't actually a problem?
what if mankind was actually wealthier than it ever was as a collective group, what if unlike the current trend of blaming immigrants and people living on welfare would have us believe, the real problem could be easily solved by a better wealth redistribution system on a global basis?
what about we just start thinking of a universal basic income ?

[/liberalhippietinfoilhatrant]

wub wrote:Why are you entitled to take out of the pot if you haven't paid in, but someone who has been working for 4yrs who isn't from this country isn't?

I have worked in the past and paid taxes, admittedly not much and not for long. I'm 27 now, been around a bit.

If we don't have enough housing, jobs, schools etc. and british ppl aren't getting jobs, houses and school places because immigrants are taking them (which isn't happening to the extent you claim it does)..

..Why don't we build more houses and schools and create more jobs?
rather than implementing, what may not be racist policies, but what certainly are, nationalistic and unpleasant policies.

It seems your biggest gripe is not having access to these things, making you feel a 2nd classs citizen. rather than making another group feel like 2nd class citizens, we should build more houses etc.

Jaydot you are ignoring the fact that immmigration brings far more economical (and imo cultural) benefits to Britain than disadvantages and there are figures which back this up.


Why should a british person have more of a right to a job than a none british person, who lives in Britain legally and has a right to work? How can you claim this on any basis other than race/ethnicity?

jaydot wrote:

wub wrote:Why are you entitled to take out of the pot if you haven't paid in, but someone who has been working for 4yrs who isn't from this country isn't?

I have worked in the past and paid taxes, admittedly not much and not for long.

Right.

So why are you entitled and they're not?

I think the core problem with a lot of Nationalist rhetoric, especially within Britain, is that it bases itself around an idea that there was some sort of "Golden Age" where British people lived in pastoral bliss in villages centred around bowling greens, wayward kids got a clip round the ear from the local Bobby for pinching penny sweets and the token Johnny Foreigner saluted the Monarchy and Flag every day in the knowledge that he'd reached the promised land, hastily jettisoning his latent barbarism into the Channel at Dover.

Of course, such a period has NEVER existed.

Britain became a world power despite being a tiny island with mediocre resources not because it closed its borders, but because it flung them open and allowed itself to become a hub for world's ideas, people and cash. The Romans turned "our" dirt tracks (built by Celtic and Anglo-Saxon immigrants) into the first proper network of roads. We built the earliest and most powerful railways in Europe, including the London Underground with Irish and otherwise immigrant labour. We built the NHS with Caribbean and African labour. We built our modern high streets and village corners with Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi entrepreneurship. We encouraged money, trade and knowledge from all over the world to converge on cities like London and built a capital city worthy of a country three times our size. Even our national dishes are foreign - the French and Romans gave us most of our 'traditional' cuisine (including most of the words for it, too) and the 20th Century influx from Asia, the Caribbean and Africa gave us the 'Indian' takeaways, free healthcare and sound system culture that would all be seen as fundamentally British things to be defended by 2014. Even the English national symbol, the Three Lions is really the emblem of the French house of Plantagenet who ruled us for a couple of our most storied centuries.

By 2114 there will be Polish derived traditions that the undereducated and over-passioned will be defending against 'foreign' contamination. Unfortunately, no matter how much foreign blood we bring in, we seem to be stuck with a similar proportion of complete tools. Oswald Mosely had them marching in black shirts, Oliver Cromwell rose to the top of their ranks and led a civil war culminating in Taliban-style religious protectionism through fear of Spanish and Italian papery... Nationalism has been a meme in our society since Boudicca decided that if the English couldn't have London to themselves, nobody could and set fire to it... and aside from the odd war effort, it's barely done the country a single iota of good.

Riddles wrote:So you're argue as a person who doesn't work in those jobs while lecturing us about how we know nothing about working class struggles.

My dad's business employs about 60 people or so, he pays really well for factory work so he doesn't get rubbish people but in the last 5 years or so,he's employing more eastern european workers than brits for 2 reasons. Firstly he gets less applications from Brits, and they're usually worse applications. Secondly the brits he has employed have quit or have been let go within the probation period cos they can't hack the work. You complain about immigration being the problem when from my perspective it's more about young british people expect to be given jobs and other people will work harder for it.

This doesn't go for high skilled labour as much I feel but I don't really have an insight except as an employee.

You talk about "them" taking jobs, they earned them by being the best for the job at the time. Being british doesn't give you the right to a job.

This, basically. If they're better than you they deserve your job and if they're better than you while having no shoes on their feet and can't speak a word of English quite frankly you need to sort yourself out.

Its ironic the people who bang on about 'hand outs' the most are those that expect hand outs themselves for the dumbest of reasons, top of the bunch is that you are entitled to privileges because your mother decided to dumb you out of her vagina in a particular geographical location. Get a grip, nobody owes you shit for that insignificant detail of your life.

southstar wrote:No one has made the most important point yet

That eastern europeans eat babies and poo in the street?

wub wrote:

jaydot wrote:

wub wrote:Why are you entitled to take out of the pot if you haven't paid in, but someone who has been working for 4yrs who isn't from this country isn't?

I have worked in the past and paid taxes, admittedly not much and not for long.

Right.

So why are you entitled and they're not?

I think you should pay "more" into the "pot" as a migrant who a.) previously hasn't done so. b.) to compensate for the public services you use. No one can calculate exactly how many immigrants come into the country what with illegals and then you have asylum seekers/refugees who won't contribute anything barely so I think there has to be a threshold of "compensation". Afterall, you're an "extra mouth to feed"

jaydot wrote:

wub wrote:

jaydot wrote:

wub wrote:Why are you entitled to take out of the pot if you haven't paid in, but someone who has been working for 4yrs who isn't from this country isn't?

I have worked in the past and paid taxes, admittedly not much and not for long.

Right.

So why are you entitled and they're not?

I think you should pay "more" into the "pot" as a migrant who a.) previously hasn't done so. b.) to compensate for the public services you use. No one can calculate exactly how many immigrants come into the country what with illegals and then you have asylum seekers/refugees who won't contribute anything barely so I think there has to be a threshold of "compensation". Afterall, you're an "extra mouth to feed"

Well technically, in this example you're the extra mouth to feed. They're working, earning a wage, and paying into the pot.

You're on an extended sicky.

jaydot wrote: I think you should pay "more" into the "pot" as a migrant who a.) previously hasn't done so. b.) to compensate for the public services you use. No one can calculate exactly how many immigrants come into the country what with illegals and then you have asylum seekers/refugees who won't contribute anything barely so I think there has to be a threshold of "compensation". Afterall, you're an "extra mouth to feed"

While you are earning you are an extra hand rather than an extra mouth and entitlements need to be earned. Here's another thing unless it's changed entitlements are based on NI contributions which people will be paying as soon as they are earning, the services they use are paid for in tax. You want people to pay insurance for benefits they can't claim.

What i don't understand is how come australia can have this strict immigration policy and no-one bats an eye but if we consider the same it becomes racist?

Phigure wrote:can you change jaydots name to muslamic rayguns?

Muslamic Jayguns