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Also alien pimp - I'd like to see a list of your sources for this mysterious "knowledge" you have which makes my opinions illogical and irrelevant - I tend to form most of my opinions from a fairly detailed knowledge of British political and financial history (especially Simon Schama's British History, Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain and Niall Ferguson's Ascent Of Money), an A Level in Economics and a pretty strong grounding in the books of Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein.... I've still never seen anything that's made me think that banking or capitalism is inherently bad.

You seem to see this as an obvious opinion to hold - so I assume you can show me a source with the killer point that will flick the switch in my brain.

Well, otherwise what you're saying is just empty rhetoric that you can't back up.

alien pimp wrote:@ magma: i'm saying i do my best efforts to participate as little as possible in something i hate
therefore i roll very low amounts of money, i'm trying to make my own way in music industry without sucking more than i can afford, i prefer trading to money, i stay away from the brands that hurt people and so on...
it gives me a certain self-respect and verticality that also leads to a lot of envy and rejection, but what one does or says always tells more about himself than about others
so i'm fine with myself, i hope you are just as confident in your words!

Of course I am. Well, I'm confident in how I formed my opinions anyway - that says nothing of whether they're right or not. I consider them to be and I feel I have decent logic behind them. I spend most of my spare time reading about subjects that interest me - mainly war, human nature, physics and economics and as a result my positions on these things change subtley all the time, although I feel as one gets older/more experienced that one gets closer to holding "correct" opinions - it would be arrogant to say "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG! LAH LAH I'M NOT LISTENING".

I consider myself to have fairly well considered opinions on these that I can normally at least back up, even if I can't win arguments. Generally if someone disproves me, I'm happy to alter my world view - a closed mind is a pointless mind.

If you can show me the mysterious "truth" that you've obviously found, hopefully you can change my mind.

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: not protesting against it its very stupid if you know any bit of how banks get their money and how they use it especially

In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

Magma wrote:it would be arrogant to say "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG! LAH LAH I'M NOT LISTENING".

this has always worked for me so far dammit magma

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: not protesting against it its very stupid if you know any bit of how banks get their money and how they use it especially

In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

And in Thomas Jefferson's opinion!

Magma wrote: If you can show me the mysterious "truth" that you've obviously found, hopefully you can change my mind.

I've heard that expression before, i've always said it's nothing mysterious, it's all out there, you just need to look for it and give it a chance, i linked a lot to what i had in hand, don't expect me to do your work cause it's your ass at stake, not mine!

but i said that too before

which makes me think one can write whatever, if people don't want to read...

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: not protesting against it its very stupid if you know any bit of how banks get their money and how they use it especially

In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

Because.......? Does he expand at all? Or do you just believe it because he said it?

Just because Thomas Jefferson said something doesn't make it inherently true for all times. At the time of Jefferson being politically active the world looked an awful lot different to today.

You might also be interested to know that up until the year before putting his signature onto the Declaration of Independence, Ben Franklin was still travelling to and from Westminster with the hope of keeping America as some form of British colony. He changed his mind somewhat - so whilst I could, if I had a book handy, give you a quote from Franklin in which he praised the King and hoped that an American government could be formed whilst still *under* a British King... it wouldn't be representative of his final opinions on the subject.

Quotes are pretty useless in other words. Give us your logic, not quotes from centuries ago.

Magma wrote:And also, I think it's always worth remembering that, as well as giving us McDonalds, Starbucks, E$$o, Ford and Milton Friedman; Capitalism has also given us Bob Moog, a thousand independently competetive record labels and every nightclub I've ever been to. It's not all bad!

Yeah I totally agree with you. Capitalism is shit, but it's much better than what came before it. Living tied to your land, having 4 out of 5 days worth of harvest going straight to the Lord of the manor (who controlled what you did, who you married etc) would have been pretty fucking shit, as would living in earlier forms of society, like being a slave for instance.


Alien pimp: The point isn't to "participate as little as possible in something I hate". we live under capitalism, and you living in a hippy commune and sewing your own socks won't change shit. Though, I admit I don't really know how we CAN change shit. I just do what political activity I think is important to do. More to the point, I enjoy going on rowdy demonstrations like this. Yes, violence for the sake of violence won't bring the system to it's knees, but it is a liberating experience standing up for yourself.

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: not protesting against it its very stupid if you know any bit of how banks get their money and how they use it especially

In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

And in Thomas Jefferson's opinion!

yeah, it's just me and my imaginary friend tom, please ignore us, we're not the kind of people you'd like to even bother with

alien pimp wrote:I've heard that expression before, i've always said it's nothing mysterious, it's all out there, you just need to look for it and give it a chance, i linked a lot to what i had in hand, don't expect me to do your work cause it's your ass at stake, not mine!

Well, not really, the somewhat underwhelming action yesterday rather shows that those that still do have some faith in capitalism/banks are still in the majority (I think most of the country/world is hoping that the various coordinated stimulus packages will have a positive effect - not that Swampy is going to take over Parliament and sort everything out) - it is your cause that needs to communicate it's views better.

But we're listening right now, you have the stage - change our minds! You've obviously read something in the past which changed yours - what was it??

Magma wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: not protesting against it its very stupid if you know any bit of how banks get their money and how they use it especially

In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

Because.......? Does he expand at all? Or do you just believe it because he said it?

Just because Thomas Jefferson said something doesn't make it inherently true for all times. At the time of Jefferson being politically active the world looked an awful lot different to today.

You might also be interested to know that up until the year before putting his signature onto the Declaration of Independence, Ben Franklin was still travelling to and from Westminster with the hope of keeping America as some form of British colony. He changed his mind somewhat - so whilst I could, if I had a book handy, give you a quote from Franklin in which he praised the King and hoped that an American government could be formed whilst still *under* a British King... it wouldn't be representative of his final opinions on the subject.

Quotes are pretty useless in other words. Give us your logic, not quotes from centuries ago.

my logic tells me you were earlier asking for my sources, 1 post away and you changed your mind
also my logic tells me that was an answer to a guy who claimed i'm alone in my beliefs, so i brought another friend to help
besides logic, i keep observing a lot of people imply i'm saying or thinking stuff i didn't, instead of simply quoting me.
so maybe in your case it's not about what you know, but how you work with what you know

tr0tsky wrote: Alien pimp: The point isn't to "participate as little as possible in something I hate". we live under capitalism, and you living in a hippy commune and sewing your own socks won't change shit. Though, I admit I don't really know how we CAN change shit. I just do what political activity I think is important to do. More to the point, I enjoy going on rowdy demonstrations like this. Yes, violence for the sake of violence won't bring the system to it's knees, but it is a liberating experience standing up for yourself.

if i need socks i go pickem up from somebody that doesn't use my money or whatever i pay with against me, that's all

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: not protesting against it its very stupid if you know any bit of how banks get their money and how they use it especially

In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

And in Thomas Jefferson's opinion!

yeah, it's just me and my imaginary friend tom, please ignore us, we're not the kind of people you'd like to even bother with

I was just trying to make the point that that previous statement was your opinion, and not a statement of fact. I'm only too aware that you and Mr Jefferson aren't the only ones who share that point of view.

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote: In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

And in Thomas Jefferson's opinion!

yeah, it's just me and my imaginary friend tom, please ignore us, we're not the kind of people you'd like to even bother with

I was just trying to make the point that that previous statement was your opinion, and not a statement of fact. I'm only too aware that you and Mr Jefferson aren't the only ones who share that point of view.

good
and it's a statement of fact

alien pimp wrote:

Magma wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: not protesting against it its very stupid if you know any bit of how banks get their money and how they use it especially

In your opinion.

"Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

Because.......? Does he expand at all? Or do you just believe it because he said it?

Just because Thomas Jefferson said something doesn't make it inherently true for all times. At the time of Jefferson being politically active the world looked an awful lot different to today.

You might also be interested to know that up until the year before putting his signature onto the Declaration of Independence, Ben Franklin was still travelling to and from Westminster with the hope of keeping America as some form of British colony. He changed his mind somewhat - so whilst I could, if I had a book handy, give you a quote from Franklin in which he praised the King and hoped that an American government could be formed whilst still *under* a British King... it wouldn't be representative of his final opinions on the subject.

Quotes are pretty useless in other words. Give us your logic, not quotes from centuries ago.

my logic tells me you were earlier asking for my sources, 1 post away and you changed your mind
also my logic tells me that was an answer to a guy who claimed i'm alone in my beliefs, so i brought another friend to help
besides logic, i keep observing a lot of people imply i'm saying or thinking stuff i didn't, instead of simply quoting me.
so maybe in your case it's not about what you know, but how you work with what you know

I'm still asking for your sources. I want to know how you came to your opinions so that I might come to them as well.

Give me your logic. Simply quoting someone else that believes the same thing doesn't tell us how you got there. Tell us how you got to your opinion... if you hold an opinion, surely you can back it up? Surely you don't just believe it because someone told you to? I mean, I assume you did make your own mind up about all this?

@ magma:
and if it's one thing i despise more than anything since galileo is the majority argument

who pulls this out usually doesn't have much chances to get me bothered with for long
so you know

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: "Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

And in Thomas Jefferson's opinion!

yeah, it's just me and my imaginary friend tom, please ignore us, we're not the kind of people you'd like to even bother with

I was just trying to make the point that that previous statement was your opinion, and not a statement of fact. I'm only too aware that you and Mr Jefferson aren't the only ones who share that point of view.

good
and it's a statement of fact

yes it's a statement of fact which raises questions needing more supporting evidence before it can be taken as reality or truth

alien pimp wrote:@ magma:
and if it's one thing i despise more than anything since galileo is the majority argument

I'm not saying we're right because we're in the majority. I'm saying that when you're in the minority (as you are), you have a greater responsibility to communicate your beliefs effectively.

Please tell us the logic behind your opinions so we can understand you properly! Surely instead of all this bickering about the semantics of my posts you could have just explained how you reached your opinion?

Magma wrote:
I'm still asking for your sources. I want to know how you came to your opinions so that I might come to them as well.

Give me your logic. Simply quoting someone else that believes the same thing doesn't tell us how you got there. Tell us how you got to your opinion... if you hold an opinion, surely you can back it up? Surely you don't just believe it because someone told you to? I mean, I assume you did make your own mind up about all this?

sure man, 33 years of that shit, want it on cd or memory stick?
you can't be bothered to read my posts properly, how can i dare to ask you to read the others, the links i and others posted here, then from there to go further by yourself
c'mon dude, you're here for confirming yourself, not learning

If I do convince you banks are killing people will you quit your job or just find a lame excuse to be payed blood money?

Magma wrote:

alien pimp wrote:@ magma:
and if it's one thing i despise more than anything since galileo is the majority argument

I'm not saying we're right because we're in the majority. I'm saying that when you're in the minority (as you are), you have a greater responsibility to communicate your beliefs effectively.

that is solid though. and i'm doing my part everyday, readers don't

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

kins83 wrote:

alien pimp wrote: "Our banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"
Thomas Jefferson

And in Thomas Jefferson's opinion!

yeah, it's just me and my imaginary friend tom, please ignore us, we're not the kind of people you'd like to even bother with

I was just trying to make the point that that previous statement was your opinion, and not a statement of fact. I'm only too aware that you and Mr Jefferson aren't the only ones who share that point of view.

good
and it's a statement of fact

I give up.