News about Pirate Bay

[sifres]

You hold the same credibility as me in this discussion

You are advocating stealing in the name of causing a paradigm shift in the way music is delivered. I am admitting I was wrong when I used to pirate music.

I'd say that gives me infinitely more credibility on the subject. I've also watched our sales numbers come in and watched us go from #1 on all the charts for these online shops to dropping off of the charts when our shit leaked to torrents, to returning immediately to the top of said charts when I hit that tracker with a cease and desist and had the torrent taken down.

I've watched what it does for our sales. Imagine that happening on the scale of millions instead of a few hundred downloads that it was.

I'm not being presumptuous. You are advocating stealing. You said it's not wrong yourself. You said that it's a good thing for music. As a label owner and a producer I'm telling you it's not. I see our numbers and I can look at those and graph our sales and see where dips in sales coincide with leaks to torrent trackers. It's not some shit I'm pulling out of my ass. We're not a major label. Maybe you are such a bigtime producer that a couple hundred downloads of your 12" release doesn't set you back. a couple hundred for our label is the difference between doing another release or being dropped from our distributor. It's not the difference between the Mercedes and the Lambo for me, it's the difference between beans and rice for dinner or nothing on hand to eat.

Thank you for finally putting something into play I can work with...

To me... I don't understand why you'd get into dubstep expecting to be able to live of it. It feels like a heavily satturated market. With more people making tunes then buying them...

Me... I come from a hardcore acid techno squat background. So yes, I'm a bit punk / left wing in my oppinions. I also come from a DIY culture selling records from my car trunk. Dj's being friends you meet at parties and endorsing each others records, trading a bunch and traveling to other country's for festivals and to sell in the shops there for instance...

Producing, throwing wicked parties, releasing, to me it's allways been a hobby mate.

To me... expecting to live off dubstep releases is so far off, I can't even begin to imagine why you would even try getting in that position.... Releasing music is something you do for fun, just like making it.

I gotta respect you for trying though. It must be frustrating trying it.
And I'll back off with my opinions outta respect, but boy do they differ

I'd say that gives me a world more credibility on the issue than you. Great, you are a producer... how many records have you released on your own label only to watch 20,000 downloads and 150 copies sold? Judging by your ignorance, I'd say you haven't released any.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about period. It takes 300 12" records being sold to break even. That is before being able to pay for the art(not included in the price), the cost of promotion, paying any sort of advance to the producer in question... most labels won't sell 200 of those 300. It can be a GREAT release and not sell 300 records. That's just the way it is so long as people think like you do.

Not jumping to conclusions my friend... coming to conclusions is more like it.

But there you go again... ok the details;

I released 2 records on my own label... 1 in 2002 and 1 in 2004 (discogs is slightly off on this one...)

http://www.discogs.com/label/Deus+Ex+Machina

I worked with a single distribution. He distributed 350 of both to a couple of major ones in europe and do the dutch shops by himself. Both sold about 450 copies out of 500. (I like to keep a couple around). So the remaining 100 I sold at parties, traded out etc. That actually made the extra buck as you could sell them for 8 euro instead of around 4 euro, and people still get a kick out off getting it cheap.

You'll propably say that downloads didn't effect the releases back then. And your right. But the squat scene is still stuck in vinyl mode, CDJ's being too fragile.

One of hollands biggest acid tekno producers releases his mp3's for free with any release, people will buy the vinyl if they like the music anyway.



Not that we're going to agree after this, but I'm seeing your point more... You'll propably still say I'm a thief anyway, now at least you know the thief

[surface_tension]

This isn't about Dubstep and trying to make a living off of Dubstep. It's music in general. It's not for you or me to say whether or not someone has the right to pursue a career in music, or which genre's of music are too commercial.

You sell records, it's commercial. Big up, you sold your record DIY. Congrats on doing as well as you did. I'm glad you didn't lose your ass. Most people do. Like you said, saturated markets etc... All I'm saying is that YOU don't have the right to steal my car with a trunkload of vinyl and then proceed to give that vinyl away, while picking up hitchikers in my stolen car.

As an artist/label, it's our job and our right to market ourselves as we will. Our success or failure should rest entirely upon our ability to market our product to the consumer. We choose the formats we want to deliver that in. If we as a label make the choice to consciously neglect the vinyl buyers and do digital only, or neglect the digital buyers and do vinyl only, or any format we choose, that is up to us, not you... not some kid who ripped the vinyl and gave it away.

This may shock you, but I'm not as concerned about the people who download the 1 tune and listen to it, even if they never buy it(I'm concerned, but it's not #1). I'm more concerned about touring DJ's who will make money for their booking fees downloading our releases and making money off of us. If that was a Jukebox in a bar, or plays on terrestrial radio, we'd get a fee for that through licensing. We would be able to recoup a bit of money. It might not be much, but in some countries people live on 20 dollars every few months. Imagine how life changing it could be to live in some Asian Pacific country, for instance, and have a release that sells enough for you to feed your family for months on end... you might not be able to buy a gram of weed for that in your country, but it could be life altering for them.

Let me ask you though... does any producer from any country, regardless of that economy not have the same right to attempt to make that living? You were fortunate enough to have the CHOICE to sell your stuff out of your trunk. If it leaks then the choice is removed. Does it matter if it's a major label or a DIY label?

I guess I just don't understand the sense of entitlement. A lot of people who are rich actually had to work their ass off to get rich. They don't owe you or me anything at all unless we helped them get rich. You hate corporations right? Why?

It's because they don't take care of the lower level employees, offer benefits that type of thing right? What job will be the first to go when the profits take a dive? You think the CEO will take a pay cut? You think he will protect the interests of his blue collar father of 3 engineer, assembly worker, janitor?

Hell no. Those jobs are gone. The CEO will make sure his ass is covered and his pension is safe. They will hire someone who can BARELY sing and has nice tits, slap some autotune vocals over a shit pop tune. A big loss for the quality of music as a whole. Would you say popular music has gotten better or worse in the last 10 years? Yea, filesharing is doing great things... for Nsync, Backstreet Boys, Brittney Spears... they have the look and easily can be replaced by the next carbon copy.

Back here in the real world though, filesharing fucking kills us. There is no excuse for it. You can't afford to buy the 12" record, I can't afford for you to take it and give it away. Have some respect for my position and I'll be more inclined to come up with a new means of delivery that is mutually beneficial. Keyword being MUTUAL. Remember, as a label or a producer, I owe you nothing. As a listener or consumer, you owe me nothing. I have to show you something you are willing to buy, and you have to show me the money if you want it. Unfortunately, it costs money to master a release. It costs money to press vinyl. I wish it didn't, but it does.

And like it or not, you will not be successful in Dubstep or any other form of music being digital only. Unless you are already famous, most people will only trust labels releasing vinyl. The solution isn't to make independent labels pay for the sins of the buying public. They want vinyl, we press it. It's not we press it, so they want it.

[sifres]

I guess I just don't understand the sense of entitlement. A lot of people who are rich actually had to work their ass off to get rich. They don't owe you or me anything at all unless we helped them get rich. You hate corporations right? Why?

I pointed this out a couple of pages ago.

Point is the industry has done nothing but try to squeeze the people out of their cash.

Let me finish my mixtape point to illustrate this. In holland we have an organisation called BUMA STEMRA, they represent the combined artists. Similar to the RIAA I guess.

They can send you a takedown notice for putting your own music on your website. Sad but true. They will, and are capable doing so by law. They will come down 3x as hard if it is a site hosting mixtapes that are not originaly from the DJ himself. So any effort hosting a mixtape site in Holland is pointless.

So yes... It is piracy. Legaly that is. The point that everybody (even the dj's themselves) think it's alright doesn't change that.

Keep in mind also you are generating money for Soundcloud, Megaupload, Rapidshare etc,

Then in holland you have the SENA. They are a sister organisation to the BUMA. They are the ones that charge discotheques and DJ's. They will even charge livesets. Hosting a 2000 people free rave in a legal location, will result in a 3000 euro bill. Even if you prove that it was 100% bands and liveacts. I have seen people getting in serious debts over this.

This is all good you say? Money flows to the artists? Yeah... If your music is played on the radio and is from sony/virgin it is. But these people charge by the track, regardless if you are affiliated. Money get's devided because at a couple of bars they will have listening computers stationed, so they can spot trends...

Lone Dubstep DJ get's paid? Nah... But get's charged for playing his own tracks.

These people also lost about 400mln euro's because of bad investments.

And that's the "industry" for you. I compare this to my record selling days and feel sick in the stommach that these people are charging clubs and dj's for playing my record, and giving proceedings of it to well... 0,000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 goes to ms Britney Spears and the rest goes right back into the industry, not me, or my DIY friends. The biggest take of it is the BUMA / RIAA themselfs.

This system was build for big corporations and essentialy only serves them. That's why I keep far from that. But still I feel I am being used by them.

So they started the stealing in my opinion. That's really how I feel about it.



Don't get me wrong, I feel your pain as an independant label.

The labels that make it are the ones that get creative with party collabs, big name remixes, sick artwork and who have good original releases on their name.

Hope you guys make it... You at least have the fighting spirit for it

[hurlingdervish]

piracy will be a drop of water in an ocean if the RIAA and cable companies get control over the internet


Internet radio you say? How about a 25,000 dollar startup fee? RIAA is planning just that

goodbye subfm dubstep.fm

hello corporate pop radio.

http://blog.pandora.com/pandora/archive ... royal.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/24/141326/870

piracy should be the least of dubstep's concern with that on the table

[adikt]

christ you guys get fucking emotional.

anti-sharing peoples...seriously...everyone isn't a fucking dirty emo tnuc with every track they've heard on tv or radio for the past month on their q list. I've given at least 10 examples in this thread of people, small scale & large who have benefited from file sharing in some monetary way. Your label is one that hasnt while i can name some that have. Seems the people that give away all their music anyway are the ones benefiting rather than losing sales. they never expected anything in the first place so hey! money for my art!? even a little bit!? sweet!


pro-sharing peoples...seriously...stop fucking downloading everything on the net just so you can have "94,000 files shared" next to your name online. Download what you have never heard & buy it if you enjoy it enough. Explore new music you would never have been exposed to. TELL the artist if you like it & buy the product from the artist directly when possible! If someone comes to you at a club & asks where he can download the track...he obviously likes it...tell him the label he can get it from rather than giving him your slsk name!! Be fucking conscious & stop ruining it for those of us who do have half your fucking download list on vinyl already.



There. both sides. happy?

[seckle]

Be fucking conscious & stop ruining it for those of us who do have half your fucking download list on vinyl already.

the idea to be conscious is a good one, but the reality is that someone thats sharing things doesn't have the slightest morality in their decision to do it. they don't care, because there's no real life repercussions.

i think what we've seen in recent months, especially over this PB thing, that ISP records can be used in court, years after the downloading happens. the ISP records that were used to bring down PB, were over several years of ISP traffic. PB didn't know that their servers were being audited until it was too late. i think people should think carefully about P2P in regards to their own ISP records, because who knows when you'll get a letter in the mail asking for £20k in damages. are people ready for that? can you gamble with the fact that it won't happen to you? can you afford a good lawyer? this is the stuff you need to consider. peoples lives have been ruined over downloading 2 albums worth of mp3's.

[bass hertz]

Consider that the music industry has become so large and corporate that it doesn't hold up music anymore. Consider the business models are build on physical CD sales and prices, and they want to continue asking the same price. Consider trademark organisations bleeding people dry for a podcast.

You think that revenue was going to the artist in questions? The mastering engineers? No... It all went to the leeches in the pelt.

Downloading IS forcing the industry to change. And review their business models. That's a good thing after the 90's where it was possible to hype shitty music just by marketing. It clears the air for the independants and decent music we all hold so highly.

Oh and if you look around you in this thread, and the forum in general, you will notice that this is mainly a non p2p scene. People feel the need to support. This discussion aint strictly about dubstep, so your comment comes down as very arrogant and presumtious. Just because people are airing a view that's different from yours doesn't mean you can call them workless thiefs.

damn damn damn what a fucking DUMB ASS. And yes... I am personally attacking you, because you are a piece of shit who deserves it.

At the moment; the majority of quality music IS on INDIE labels. You mean to tell me that pirates don't leech and seed this???! Ohh... their whole point in filesharing is "bringing down the corporate man" ?!

I'm with Surface Tension on this one. I'm not a violent person but I wouldn't regret the BSA or the RIAA ripping you a new asshole in your face.

And... you are aware that some of the moderators on this forum are producers who sell their music? And that they have your IP or at least your Proxy/VPN/BNC/SHELL/PSYBNC ??

Wether you believe in bibles, morality, or karma... eventually you will get yours and it's gonna hurt.

[firky]

You really should cut out food with enumbers and sweetners in, dude.

[bass hertz]

You really should cut out food with enumbers and sweetners in, dude.

oh my god that was so witty. you like just won the thread.. oh my you are so impressive. I bet you have a herum in your room right now with bitches laid out everywhere screaming your name.

you my friend are the greatest that ever lived.

I'm just gonna go kill myself now.

[firky]

Don't know why you thought that was supposed to be witty, scrappy-do. You're an irate Christian school kid with a hard on for preaching others, get over yourself. No one is impressed or gives a toss about your biblical teachings.

[magma]

Moderation is the key. Downloading can be positive for both sides, but downloading music that you like and then never paying for it is fucking wrong... especially with indendent artists (frankly, I'd love to see the 'Bigs' crash and burn and be replaced with bands and small collectives putting out their own stuff).

I spend way more on CDs since I've been using the internet to look for music than I did before... but I also freely admit to downloading stuff that, for instance, comes out vinyl only (I don't have a vinyl deck) or radio bootlegs of stuff that isn't available yet.

I don't DJ a lot, but I wouldn't play anything out that I didn't own (unless I was playing a house party for mates or something) - that would be seriously cheeky.

[firky]

I don't DJ a lot, but I wouldn't play anything out that I didn't own (unless I was playing a house party for mates or something) - that would be seriously cheeky.

I know of someone who does that - they play out at festivals (big ones like Glade and Glastonbury), it's well cheeky I agree. Kind of chuckle at his audacity I must admit... but hey, I rape people, everyone has their sin.

[bass hertz]

Don't know why you thought that was supposed to be witty, scrappy-do. You're an irate Christian school kid with a hard on for preaching others, get over yourself. No one is impressed or gives a toss about your biblical teachings.

wow. you again prove yourself as the king of one-liners. do you have a class or something you teach so I could learn to be like you? I bet you're the man behind the Nigerian emails. it is with great pleasure to inform you sir you are the best hope for the world for all of us.

[bass hertz]

Moderation is the key. Downloading can be positive for both sides, but downloading music that you like and then never paying for it is fucking wrong... especially with indendent artists (frankly, I'd love to see the 'Bigs' crash and burn and be replaced with bands and small collectives putting out their own stuff).

good point! Yea... I only break into my neighbors house and steal their shit in moderation.

:class:

[firky]

You're weird.

[sifres]

damn damn damn what a fucking DUMB ASS. And yes... I am personally attacking you, because you are a piece of shit who deserves it.

At the moment; the majority of quality music IS on INDIE labels. You mean to tell me that pirates don't leech and seed this???! Ohh... their whole point in filesharing is "bringing down the corporate man" ?!

I'm with Surface Tension on this one. I'm not a violent person but I wouldn't regret the BSA or the RIAA ripping you a new asshole in your face.

And... you are aware that some of the moderators on this forum are producers who sell their music? And that they have your IP or at least your Proxy/VPN/BNC/SHELL/PSYBNC ??

Wether you believe in bibles, morality, or karma... eventually you will get yours and it's gonna hurt.

I'm sorry but all I can do is

Yeah man... As we speak the mods are planning my demise... Also they are doing this because I stated I value contributing to music by buying it. Also for discussing my views with you guys and explaining where it's coming from. Yeah man. They'll probably ban me for saying the industry has changed and, although specifically stating that I'm not condoning filesharing, seeing some good in it! Good call... I'm hiding behind my proxy now!

Also... The RIAA would love to get their hands on the guy who is currently sharing 1 track. His own.

I'm sure oh and btw; 82.169.27.144

You're the one who should get banned. Threatening with physical violence are we? Brave man!

Somebody lock this thread before this guy makes an even bigger ass of himself. This shouting contest has become a farse anyway...

PS. Adikt I like your view. It's way more realistic then all the B&W ones aired here.

Don't know why you thought that was supposed to be witty, scrappy-do. You're an irate Christian school kid with a hard on for preaching others, get over yourself. No one is impressed or gives a toss about your biblical teachings.

Yeah... I'm pretty sure he gets off on it...

[magma]

Moderation is the key. Downloading can be positive for both sides, but downloading music that you like and then never paying for it is fucking wrong... especially with indendent artists (frankly, I'd love to see the 'Bigs' crash and burn and be replaced with bands and small collectives putting out their own stuff).

good point! Yea... I only break into my neighbors house and steal their shit in moderation.

:class:

That wasn't what I was saying at all, but thanks. If you enjoy music, you should buy it. You shouldn't have to buy music in order to try it out. You wouldn't buy a painting without looking at it first and you wouldn't buy clothes without trying them on... art is all about the final product.

If I can listen to something well enough on Boomkat or somewhere before buying it, then that's great (and quite common), but occasionally I find out about music from different sources, or it's only available on CD... so I really don't see the problem with downloading it and, if it's rubbish, deleting it/not playing it or, if it's good, buying it.

Moderation. No need for the theatrics, it's only the internet.

[bass hertz]

PS. Adikt I like your view. It's way more realistic then all the B&W ones aired here..

Black and white views on theft? There is no such thing as a grey area in theft! Either you stole it, or your didn't.

Morality 101 sucker.

[bass hertz]

That wasn't what I was saying at all, but thanks. If you enjoy music, you should buy it. You shouldn't have to buy music in order to try it out. You wouldn't buy a painting without looking at it first and you wouldn't buy clothes without trying them on... art is all about the final product.

If I can listen to something well enough on Boomkat or somewhere before buying it, then that's great (and quite common), but occasionally I find out about music from different sources, or it's only available on CD... so I really don't see the problem with downloading it and, if it's rubbish, deleting it/not playing it or, if it's good, buying it.

Moderation. No need for the theatrics, it's only the internet.

ok... I'm following you.

By that logic...

you go into a brick and mortar music shop... take a cd or vinyl home with you, without paying for it, and later on if you like it... send the shop some money?

[magma]

That wasn't what I was saying at all, but thanks. If you enjoy music, you should buy it. You shouldn't have to buy music in order to try it out. You wouldn't buy a painting without looking at it first and you wouldn't buy clothes without trying them on... art is all about the final product.

If I can listen to something well enough on Boomkat or somewhere before buying it, then that's great (and quite common), but occasionally I find out about music from different sources, or it's only available on CD... so I really don't see the problem with downloading it and, if it's rubbish, deleting it/not playing it or, if it's good, buying it.

Moderation. No need for the theatrics, it's only the internet.

ok... I'm following you.

By that logic...

you go into a brick and mortar music shop... take a cd or vinyl home with you, without paying for it, and later on if you like it... send the shop some money?

No, but I hear that DVD shops didn't used to get too pissed off with rental firms.

And anyway... I thought we were talking about the artists, not shopkeepers? Sure, stealing a shopkeeper's stock is wrong, but listening to an artists art before deciding whether or not to buy it is a different matter and by using the internet, you can do it without having to involve the shopkeeper at all in your law breaking...

Also - most shops DO let you listen to music before you buy it - how do you think people buy music? Completely blind [deaf]?! The internet just allows you to do it more easily and without leaving the house, it's great.