Cleese: 'London is no longer an English city'

[tomre]

Don't fight people !

Hating is not done atm, loving makes you cool !

And it's a fact London nowadays is North-Korean.

[Genevieve]

Ive heard mixed race people have to be called dual heritage nowadays. I agree that the world is getting too soft with a lot of things, seems to me you cant say anything without offending someone.

Daily Mail website's that way, mate --> http://www.dailymail.co.uk

"It's political correctness gone MAD I TELL YOU"

Tbh, 'political correctnes' is nothing I worry about myself, but it does have some negative implications and to simply brush it off as a non-issue because the issue itself is associated with a group of people you disagree with is silly. People love to play the victim card. People in general, obviously. And by constantly complying to the minority's wishes, the ridiculous ones that is, you will piss the majority off. Understandably so. Slurs, fine, I mean I completely agree that using 'slurs' is a bad thing, but constantly changing nomenclature because after a decade or so, someone will get offended by the 'new word' is fucking stupid.

Hell, in the Netherlands, minorities get away with talking shit about the Dutch, but if you say something about minorities you can face some time in court. This is an absolute fact.

We do live in a society where you can progressively make fun of less and say less and what people fail to realize is that freedom of speech includes speech that we don't agree with. I mean hasn't the UN banned criticism of Islam? I'm sorry, that just doesn't work. It's not equality, it's putting the minority on a pedestal and so many supposed 'equality advocates' are doing exactly that in a failed attempt to offset the injustice.

To me it's just reflective of a government's continuous failed attempt to get rid of racism and forcing tolerants and acceptance on people. While a noble goal, I think it's best to just level the playing field by treating people as individuals and let the issue of racism take care of itself.

[noam]

Ive heard mixed race people have to be called dual heritage nowadays. I agree that the world is getting too soft with a lot of things, seems to me you cant say anything without offending someone.

you call people exactly what they want to be called

its about respecting peoples rights to have control over their identity and how they wish to be received in society no matter where they're from

and if that means you have to alter your vocabulary to avoid offending someone it might annoy you, but the fact it annoys you doesn't make it any less correct

if you wanted me to just call you ''John'' and i wanted to just call you a ''fa.g.got'' you because it was too irritating to call you anything else you wished to be called its not really fair is it

in the same way, with people who know me, i dont care what they call me when we're joking, but if some randomer on the street decides to address me in a way i dont like i dont feel any shame in correcting them

"PC gone mad because i cant call people things that people used to call people" is just ridiculous

move with the times, surely its better to respect people's wishes than not do??

[noam]

Hell, in the Netherlands, minorities get away with talking shit about the Dutch, but if you say something about minorities you can face some time in court. This is an absolute fact.

thats absolute horseshit...

a man in Holland won his case in court which allowed him to call a Police Officer a Kanker-Jud... dont know how you spell it in dutch but the translation is Cancer-Jew... a common Dutch insult and the 'affectionate' name of Ajax fans along with HIV-Jud.. or AIDS/HIV Jew...

Holland is one of the more relaxed and open countries i've been to and the Dutch i've met have been the same, hearing the above was a bit of a shock to me though

edit: came across a little strong by calling the comment horseshit, sure Genevieve has examples to back his case up

[__________]

I think John's got a point to be honest.

cleese?

Yep.
Every time I've been to London I was amazed at how many people there are speaking in foreign languages.
Yes, you can have black/brown English people, I'm not debating that, but I'm 99% sure that people in head-dresses speaking Arabic aren't English. Polish people living in England speaking Polish aren't English. Don't tell me they're tourists either, I was a tourist and they didn't look half as confused or lost as I must've. These are people who could give me directions to the nearest tube station if we could actually communicate with each other.

The whole "racists always say 'I'm not racist, but...'" thing is bullshit too. Some people genuinely aren't racist but are prepared to share their views on immigration. This isn't about black English people. If you can speak English, I don't give a fuck what colour you are. If you can give me directions to the nearest tube station, I don't give a fuck what colour you are.
I have black, English friends who are in agreement with me. Yes black people can be racist too, but they can also be 100% English and I think we all have a right, nah, actually a responsibility to keep England English.

I'm not racist but I am Cornish

[capo ultra]

The whole "racists always say 'I'm not racist, but...'" thing is bullshit too.

of course it's not

how can say something which I have personally experienced is 'bullshit' do you follow me around all the time listening to my conversations.

I find many many people where I am from do not like to view themselves as racist because they dislike the bnp, but always make casually racist statements, normally from reading the sun articles or suchlike and just before they make them they always without doubt say 'I'm not racist but...' without fail

so don't tell me this is bullshit

[noam]

I think John's got a point to be honest.

cleese?

Yep.
Every time I've been to London I was amazed at how many people there are speaking in foreign languages.
Yes, you can have black/brown English people, I'm not debating that, but I'm 99% sure that people in head-dresses speaking Arabic aren't English. Polish people living in England speaking Polish aren't English. Don't tell me they're tourists either, I was a tourist and they didn't look half as confused or lost as I must've. These are people who could give me directions to the nearest tube station if we could actually communicate with each other.

The whole "racists always say 'I'm not racist, but...'" thing is bullshit too. Some people genuinely aren't racist but are prepared to share their views on immigration. This isn't about black English people. If you can speak English, I don't give a fuck what colour you are. If you can give me directions to the nearest tube station, I don't give a fuck what colour you are.
I have black, English friends who are in agreement with me. Yes black people can be racist too, but they can also be 100% English and I think we all have a right, nah, actually a responsibility to keep England English.

I'm not racist but I am Cornish

and what about all the English in other countries who cant speak a word of the language yet are there purely on economic terms??

what about all the students paying 10's of thousands of pounds to get an education here??

what about the people who face certain death in their homeland who've applied for asylum and refugee status and been accepted and now live here safely and prosperously??

pretty much all the people i know from London, and tbf i know a fucking load of londoners, all think its one of the cities most exciting and important assets - that it is one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world, and for al the problems this brings it shines as a place where you can reap the benefits of that type of society if you want

[Genevieve]

Hell, in the Netherlands, minorities get away with talking shit about the Dutch, but if you say something about minorities you can face some time in court. This is an absolute fact.

thats absolute horseshit...

a man in Holland won his case in court which allowed him to call a Police Officer a Kanker-Jud... dont know how you spell it in dutch but the translation is Cancer-Jew... a common Dutch insult and the 'affectionate' name of Ajax fans along with HIV-Jud.. or AIDS/HIV Jew...

Holland is one of the more relaxed and open countries i've been to and the Dutch i've met have been the same, hearing the above was a bit of a shock to me though

edit: came across a little strong by calling the comment horseshit, sure Genevieve has examples to back his case up

Minorities as in immigrants, admittedly my bad. Yeah, we're lax on the word 'jew', doesn't mean shit. It's apart of history, or Amsterdam's history. You can't compare the cultural significance of a word in one culture/language with the one in the other.

My examples are experience. I live in this country. I am an immigrant's son. I got into school because of fuckin' affirmative action. I do live in a country who's system panders to minorities because we only have collectivist political parties in charge. You have the more socialist parties who put them on a pedestal and then you have the center-right parties like the PVV who demonize them. There's no middleground in the Netherlands that views immigrants as people and people as individuals. And through our country's law-enforcement, immigrants can get away with talking shit about the Dutch, whereas no one is allowed to criticize them or their religion without facing serious public criticism or court time. Does it apply to every single court-case? No, but it's a prevailing social climate.

The Netherlands is seriously one of the most bigoted, racist countries I've ever been in but it tries to portray some sort of image of it being the beacon of tolerance and acceptance through the media and forcing 'acceptance' on a country that is largely still stuck in early 20th century mentality wise. And there's a rise in racism in these past few years in part becase of that.

[__________]

and what about all the English in other countries who cant speak a word of the language yet are there purely on economic terms??

They should tell us to fuck off too. Like someone said already, Australia has the right idea.

what about all the students paying 10's of thousands of pounds to get an education here??

What about them? If they can speak English I don't care. If they need a full time helper/translator to even understand anything in university, then they should fuck off. If they can't speak English but they've got £thousands, then buy a nice expensive "teach yourself English" book and come back later.

what about the people who face certain death in their homeland who've applied for asylum and refugee status and been accepted and now live here safely and prosperously??

No problem with that as long as they're making an effort to integrate in to our society. I don't expect people to learn English in 5 minutes but closed communities of immigrants trying to build their own little England are a problem in my opinion. Like I said, if you can give me directions to the nearest tube station I don't care if you're an albino Slovakian trans-sexual weirdo. That Sharia Law zone shit going on is a step too far.

pretty much all the people i know from London, and tbf i know a fucking load of londoners, all think its one of the cities most exciting and important assets - that it is one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world, and for al the problems this brings it shines as a place where you can reap the benefits of that type of society if you want

Yeah for the most part it is, I agree. No immigration - no jerk chicken. I'm thankful that we've accepted immigrants over the years. London's great for it's culture and its food, etc. However, these days we are taking on waaaaay too many immigrants, and they're not bringing much to the table. I'd rather have jerk chicken from a Jamaican guy than a raw bacon sandwich from a Polish guy.

All I'm saying is we need to up our requirements for getting in to the country. That, and not everyone who says "I'm not racist but..." is a racist.

[magma]

Ive heard mixed race people have to be called dual heritage nowadays. I agree that the world is getting too soft with a lot of things, seems to me you cant say anything without offending someone.

Daily Mail website's that way, mate --> http://www.dailymail.co.uk

"It's political correctness gone MAD I TELL YOU"

Tbh, 'political correctnes' is nothing I worry about myself, but it does have some negative implications and to simply brush it off as a non-issue because the issue itself is associated with a group of people you disagree with is silly. People love to play the victim card. People in general, obviously. And by constantly complying to the minority's wishes, the ridiculous ones that is, you will piss the majority off. Understandably so. Slurs, fine, I mean I completely agree that using 'slurs' is a bad thing, but constantly changing nomenclature because after a decade or so, someone will get offended by the 'new word' is fucking stupid.

I think you missed my point. I was only being flippant, but I'm not complaining that people should acquiesce to whatever terms they're told to use - all I was implying was that it's about time people grew the fuck up and actually thought about what they're saying. You're not castrating yourself just by choosing not to use an inflammatory term.

As long as the intention of your message is positive, you can use whatever terms you like... both speaker and listener should be equally aware that if an insult isn't intended an insult doesn't exist. If I walk into a room full of friends and say "Alright, stnuc" they'll take it as a term of endearment. If I walk into a room full of strangers and said the same, I might get bottled. Though I'd never actually use the word because it's too likely that people would misinterpret my intention, it's more than possible to be complimentary towards N-Words whilst being insulting to Black people... context is everything. Words aren't insulting, sentences are.

All that said, there's a MASSIVE proviso of respect involved in all human communication. If a person or community has specifically asked NOT to be called a certain term because it's considered insulting then it's only fair and respectful not to use it. Using it inherently demonstrates a lack of respect and, as such, conveys an insult. Any person in the UK who uses the term P*ki, for example, can ONLY be doing so these days for negative reasons - either because they're actually racist or because they have a fetish for pushing people's buttons.... either way, they're not some champion of linguistic freedom, they're just a fucking douche.

As for the comments from the rest of the country (or outside) regarding London's demographics, I'd suggest people slowed the fuck down and actually read some history. Ain't nothing going on but the status quo... anyone from anywhere in the world has been and always will be welcome in London - there's one condition... you've got to be willing to work HARD... Londoner's couldn't give a flying fuck what language you speak or what God you worship as long as you turn up on time on Monday morning.

If you'd taken your trip to the Big City a few hundred years ago, £10 Bag, everyone of any importance would've been speaking French.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I bet everyone in this thread is no more than 5th generation foreigner. We live on a fucking small Island, it is only a matter of time before one culture/s wipes out another, just as history has retold time and time again. Who wants to be 'English' I don't even know what that means.

[noam]

[/quote]
They should tell us to fuck off too. Like someone said already, Australia has the right idea.

what about all the students paying 10's of thousands of pounds to get an education here??

What about them? If they can speak English I don't care. If they need a full time helper/translator to even understand anything in university, then they should fuck off. If they can't speak English but they've got £thousands, then buy a nice expensive "teach yourself English" book and come back later.

what about the people who face certain death in their homeland who've applied for asylum and refugee status and been accepted and now live here safely and prosperously??

No problem with that as long as they're making an effort to integrate in to our society. I don't expect people to learn English in 5 minutes but closed communities of immigrants trying to build their own little England are a problem in my opinion. Like I said, if you can give me directions to the nearest tube station I don't care if you're an albino Slovakian trans-sexual weirdo. That Sharia Law zone shit going on is a step too far.

pretty much all the people i know from London, and tbf i know a fucking load of londoners, all think its one of the cities most exciting and important assets - that it is one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world, and for al the problems this brings it shines as a place where you can reap the benefits of that type of society if you want

Yeah for the most part it is, I agree. No immigration - no jerk chicken. I'm thankful that we've accepted immigrants over the years. London's great for it's culture and its food, etc. However, these days we are taking on waaaaay too many immigrants, and they're not bringing much to the table. I'd rather have jerk chicken from a Jamaican guy than a raw bacon sandwich from a Polish guy.

All I'm saying is we need to up our requirements for getting in to the country. That, and not everyone who says "I'm not racist but..." is a racist.[/quote]

^^^
i agree with some of what you wrote there

i think its important to clarify a difference between integration and multi-culturalism too... but its also important to take a healthy perspective of the situation and really look at things on a bigger scale

no one in this thread has mentioned Chinese immigrants: one of the most culturally different, socially isolated groups we have in this country - but in the media, they are not touched on, and haven't been touched on for many years. Despite that a massive amount of illegal chinese immigrants exist in this country that dont speak the language or integrate AT ALL; iknow this because i work with them. BUT... they have built a community which WE can explore irrespective of how they explore ours. The idea that they have to come here and become english or anglicised is perfectly fine, but there is nothing stopping us becoming accomodated with, and exploring their communities and their lives... after all they're in our country. What we have gleaned from that over many, many decades is a strong cultural bond with the chinese community, that yes has these negative aspects of isolation, language barriers, culture-clashes...but also gives us many advantages - chinese new year celebrations, the institution of chinese restaurants and cooking, chinese supermarkets and businesses...

its about accomodating and accepting, not expecting a change over night and preserving through the right channels, our heritage whilst realising that at some point you're going to have to live in the 'now' and change your world view with the way your world is changing.

and what about all the English in other countries who cant speak a word of the language yet are there purely on economic terms??

[Pistonsbeneath]

peoples attitude to political correctness on here is hugely naive

PC isnt necessarily the right way to be due to it being the view of those it directly affects, it more often than not comes from middle class guilt and you know it

what censoring people often achieves is a lack of discussion and people silently holding on to their views...

I have offended people in the past and i tell you i have had no intent and they were blatantly just being stupid

i once asked a girl when i was younger that was of indian parents if they had loads of cool bollywood stuff on vinyl and she took offence to that and called me racist behind my back...she was a fucking idiot just looking for attention and using her parents country of birth as an excuse to get sympathy...this is a common occurence i would imagine where 'racism' takes place

it seems as though even acknowledging differences is seen as being racist...the argument about 'people being called what they want to be called' falls down here because perception comes into it as well...are we saying we cannot even ask questions now in case they cause offence and just pretend we cannot see colour?

it is a fact that many other languages will be heard if taking a trip through london...that is ultimately all that has been said here yet that in itself is being taken offence too...an observation

nobody has even said its bad they were just saying this was the case

people that mix with people of other cultures and dont see it as meaning anything whatsoever are more comfortable talking about this kind of subject and less prone to flying off the handle than people that stick to their white friends and enlightened middle class views....i mix with a huge variety of people many of which came over here themselves and not just their parents....people like us will just take the piss out of each other and that is true equality....not defending peoples ridiculous notion to get offended over stupid shit, if i was to go live in another country i would not expect to be accepted straight away and would instead make an effort to get along with the locals and eventually i would be.

People are so uncomfortable with the subject of immigration and this is of course why the far right (BNP) has ended up gathering support from those shall we say not as cosmopolitan as the chattering classes (they dont chatter about immigration except to patronize the underclass)

[dreamizm]

Ive heard mixed race people have to be called dual heritage nowadays. I agree that the world is getting too soft with a lot of things, seems to me you cant say anything without offending someone.

Daily Mail website's that way, mate --> http://www.dailymail.co.uk

"It's political correctness gone MAD I TELL YOU"

Haha!

Lot of idiots on this thread.

If you don't adapt to change, you die. Simple.

Why lament change/evolution of things rather than enjoy it and embrace the new opportunities it presents, especially when this change is inevitable anyway? You just cause yourself undue frustration and anger.

Peace

[Pistonsbeneath]

Ive heard mixed race people have to be called dual heritage nowadays. I agree that the world is getting too soft with a lot of things, seems to me you cant say anything without offending someone.

Daily Mail website's that way, mate --> http://www.dailymail.co.uk

"It's political correctness gone MAD I TELL YOU"

Haha!

Lot of idiots on this thread.

If you don't adapt to change, you die. Simple.

Why lament change/evolution of things rather than enjoy it and embrace the new opportunities it presents, especially when this change is inevitable anyway? You just cause yourself undue frustration and anger.

Peace

read the thread a bit more maybe save for a couple of individuals

this wasnt about racism as such but about an observation

the people that need to adapt more will express their adaptation through words and there will be a curve

those that dont need to adapt as much due to location/income etc etc will just patronize

[capo ultra]

pistonsbeneath you seem to have an unhealthy pre-occupation with middle class guilt, why are you so quick to judge people as middle class just because they disagree with you?

and the only people talking about censoring opinion are people like YOU, trying to tell people that they can't hold people accountable for what they are saying

what's so uncomfortable about holding people accountable for the things they say?

[__________]

....people like us will just take the piss out of each other and that is true equality....

Totally agree

[wub]

"Political correctness gone mad, you can't even say "black paint" anymore. You have to say "Leeroy, give that wall another coat of emulsion"

[noam]

peoples attitude to political correctness on here is hugely naive

PC isnt necessarily the right way to be due to it being the view of those it directly affects, it more often than not comes from middle class guilt and you know it

what censoring people often achieves is a lack of discussion and people silently holding on to their views...

you think its naive to think what i've said then you say 'oh its middle class guilt'

...

you're confusing the illusion of political correctness with the intended preservation of dignity and the promotion of respect

you think being PC is a bad thing because people can use it to cover their own guilt whilst you neglect the real and positive upshot of it which is finding a language and a pathway of communication that navigates an already mine-laced road between clashing cultures

you're saying people should just say whats in their heads and not be made victim for expressing their ideas and emotions regardless of how misdirected and inappropriate it can be in the wrong circumstances

if you're around friends and people you know then fine, say whatever, you have boundaries that you all recognise

if you're around people you dont know you need a language that allows you to bypass the bullshit and get to know the person so you can define your own boundaries in that respect

and that starts with respecting how people wish to be addressed - THAT is political correctness, and its not mad, its honest and respectful

saying 'i've got loadsa mates who are black or brown or whatever and we call each other paki's and honky's etc. all the time!" is just crass... it doesn't work for everyday life, and rightly so, those are boundaries you make with friends, not with anyone off the street. If someone wants to be addressed as 'Dual Heritage' then fine, call them that! how does it make your life any harder. If people react badly if you ask them thats THEIR problem, the point is you do the steps right.

[Pistonsbeneath]

peoples attitude to political correctness on here is hugely naive

PC isnt necessarily the right way to be due to it being the view of those it directly affects, it more often than not comes from middle class guilt and you know it

what censoring people often achieves is a lack of discussion and people silently holding on to their views...

you think its naive to think what i've said then you say 'oh its middle class guilt'

...

you're confusing the illusion of political correctness with the intended preservation of dignity and the promotion of respect

you think being PC is a bad thing because people can use it to cover their own guilt whilst you neglect the real and positive upshot of it which is finding a language and a pathway of communication that navigates an already mine-laced road between clashing cultures

you're saying people should just say whats in their heads and not be made victim for expressing their ideas and emotions regardless of how misdirected and inappropriate it can be in the wrong circumstances

if you're around friends and people you know then fine, say whatever, you have boundaries that you all recognise

if you're around people you dont know you need a language that allows you to bypass the bullshit and get to know the person so you can define your own boundaries in that respect

and that starts with respecting how people wish to be addressed - THAT is political correctness, and its not mad, its honest and respectful

saying 'i've got loadsa mates who are black or brown or whatever and we call each other paki's and honky's etc. all the time!" is just crass... it doesn't work for everyday life, and rightly so, those are boundaries you make with friends, not with anyone off the street. If someone wants to be addressed as 'Dual Heritage' then fine, call them that! how does it make your life any harder. If people react badly if you ask them thats THEIR problem, the point is you do the steps right.

i try and treat everyone truly equally mate...i mean TRULY equally

i don't let anything warp that....i don't extend extra kid gloves/cotton wool towards anyone regardless....sugar coating is what you do with children...if i think someones being retarded and theyre not 'english' or of 'english' descent and me telling them may give them grounds for calling me a racist im going to do it regardless...the same way i will call anyone out

It seems discriminatory and racist to put more effort into sparing the feelings of one group of people due to their race than another, one thing that makes me vomit more than anything else is people tiptoing around people due to their skin colour/race, it's patronizing

If i was black i would feel the same way im sure and ive had many conversations with friends that happened to be black that felt the same way

would you always indulge people regardless of their background in the same way irrespective of your view?

mixed race and dual heritage mean the same thing...in my view if people are offended being called mixed race then im offended by them and would wish to exercise my right to call them that

offence can happen to anyone from anything and its just not as simple as people choosing what offends them to me....there are valid grievances and not so valid grievances in my book and i will call them out if i think i can qualify their stupidity