dont lie. do you really never use presets?

[deadly_habit]

You mean it's important to arbitrarily make production difficult because otherwise people with ideas would just be able to make music rather than spending years geeking out over technique?

And now that computers have removed the need for manual skill we need to introduce a random new criteria to judge people on because otherwise we'd have to think about whether their tunes are actually any good and maybe admit that people who haven't spent years 'learning their craft' are actually making better music than us? Maybe we should say that people are cheating if they use VSTs with predefined filters or oscillators and should build their own in SynthMaker or MAX or something, that way we could call anyone without a degree in signal processing a lazy tnuc.

You're talking out your arse mate.

He's just stating that making you own sound on a synth is better than using a preset.

I mean your not arguing with that notion, are you?

And who cares if the average music listener can't tell if it's a preset. The average listener buys lady GaGa and Britney spears, i'd rather have the respect of my musical peers than a bunch of drunken sluts and douches.

now we get into the problem of everybody in a genre being a "producer" vs just listeners

[gravity]

You mean it's important to arbitrarily make production difficult because otherwise people with ideas would just be able to make music rather than spending years geeking out over technique?

And now that computers have removed the need for manual skill we need to introduce a random new criteria to judge people on because otherwise we'd have to think about whether their tunes are actually any good and maybe admit that people who haven't spent years 'learning their craft' are actually making better music than us? Maybe we should say that people are cheating if they use VSTs with predefined filters or oscillators and should build their own in SynthMaker or MAX or something, that way we could call anyone without a degree in signal processing a lazy tnuc.

i never said anything about making production difficult. learning how to use a sampler or a synth is hardly difficult is it? and using max/msp is a very specialist thing unlike using a synth in a piece of dance music.
electronic music in particular is as influenced by engineering/programming techniques as musical ideas. if the jungle guys never figured out how to use a sampler properly, we wouldnt have had jungle would we? if the dubstep guys never figured out filter envelopes dubstep wouldnt be the same would it? learning your tool opens up new creative possibilities that presets might not.

and i never said anything about not working on melody, rhythm and arrangement. not once. in fact one of the things that pisses me off about a lot of dance music is people aren't adventurous enough with their musical ideas. electronic production should be a marriage of both technology and human ideas/emotion. the best electronic music excells in both of these areas.

[hugh]

electronic production should be a marriage of both technology and human ideas/emotion. the best electronic music excells in both of these areas.

nicely put
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt4GUquIzhU

[capo ultra]

I generally use the sound that sounds best, preset or not

[slothrop]

You mean it's important to arbitrarily make production difficult because otherwise people with ideas would just be able to make music rather than spending years geeking out over technique?

And now that computers have removed the need for manual skill we need to introduce a random new criteria to judge people on because otherwise we'd have to think about whether their tunes are actually any good and maybe admit that people who haven't spent years 'learning their craft' are actually making better music than us? Maybe we should say that people are cheating if they use VSTs with predefined filters or oscillators and should build their own in SynthMaker or MAX or something, that way we could call anyone without a degree in signal processing a lazy tnuc.

i never said anything about making production difficult.

Sorry, that's how I interpreted your thing about it being the new version of learning to play an instrument...

electronic music in particular is as influenced by engineering/programming techniques as musical ideas. if the jungle guys never figured out how to use a sampler properly, we wouldnt have had jungle would we?

On the other hand, a lot of those jungle guys were working with a couple of sampled breaks, an 808 bass and a couple of hip hop or reggae samples. So they weren't actually using any sounds they designed from scratch themselves. Yet a lot of them had a distinctive sound, a lot of musical ideas, pushed the style forward etc etc etc, because they were working with cutting edge rhythmic ideas or with new and unexpected combinations of existing sounds. Which was kind of my point...

if the dubstep guys never figured out filter envelopes dubstep wouldnt be the same would it?

To be honest, I'm not convinced that dubstep has done much to push the envelope of sound design. Maybe the very metallic robo-wobble bass, which I actually don't like that much. Besides that I don't think we're as advanced in terms of sound design as dnb was five years ago. Which to my mind isn't a bad thing.

learning your tool opens up new creative possibilities that presets might not.

Yeah, totally, for some people. I love learning new synths, and I like getting new ideas on it. But I don't think everyone does - some people aren't wired that way but are excellent musicians in other respects, and I think the existence of presets means that those people can get their ideas out without getting frustrated and put off by having to work at stuff they aren't good at and aren't interested in.

and i never said anything about not working on melody, rhythm and arrangement. not once.

Sorry, you haven't. I was responding generally to comments like:

if the artist's sole input into a track as far as the bassline (for example) has been picking a preset and writing a few notes...

or

Anyone can take a bunch of presets and throw them together in the same scale...

Sorry if I'm coming off a bit militant in this, but it's a subject that interests me and I've been posting a lot at work and not having time to edit my posts for tone...

Noone's responded to the question of whether a composer who just writes stuff on paper and lets other people play it is "just being a lazy tnuc", btw...

[kapital]

I have to admit that as far as presets....I have used conga loops...with minor edits, straight into a drum pattern. I didnt consider this before, but I assumed that synth the conga pattern weren't even prominent in the overall drum pattern, I wouldnt fuck with it too much.