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you know what....

you guys can just bite my gummi worm

bright maroon wrote:

bela wrote:seems to me like you have a problem with porn and society's view on women's sexuality in general because you are the one concerned about being pretty enough and have let the industry get to you.

yes and yes

we are giving first class tickets for wanking

I had a horrible stuck up cunty teacher who constantly made comments in class that were degrading and offensive
ie every day she said something about fat cows...every class the "fat cow" made an appearance..
She posted pictures on the board of people with hairy forearms to ridicule them..

belalal wrote:to suggest that good looking girls are exempt from the ills of this stuff is ridiculous though

I agree - all that constant attention and superfiscial offers must be warping - mentally..

belelealal wrote:i recall reading that you haven't had sex since 1998, yet feel that you have the right to judge others on their involvement in that realm, and moreover, the kind of consequences it can have on their well-being....

I completely skipped that - get drunk at keg party/cheese club - score one night stand thing

because - I don't like it

yeah sounds like your teacher was a real tnuc. but given the fact that you've been out of high school for ~15 years, don't you think it's time that you realize you are the bigger person in that scenario and revel in the fact that she's probably mourning the shells of her even-more-miserable life now? with that kind of outlook i'm sure she didn't get anywhere with anyone real, and you shouldn't dwell on things that only reduce you down to her level of judgement.

i'm not sure whether you intended your mental warping comment sarcastically, but regardless, you're right - it is warping mentally and leads to pretty girls with horrible self-esteem/body image issues. when you are objectified to the point that people approach you, talk to you and interact with you in a way that is totally physically driven, it forces you to scrutinize the worth of your physical attributes moreso than you would otherwise. the "system" hurts all women equally with all things considered, and to shift any of the blame on to the pretty girls themselves is ignorant at best, fucking shameful at worst.

lastly, young women's sexuality is not limited to one night stands and reducing it to that, as a female, might be worse than the guys on the prowl at those keg parties.

also, relevant:

bright maroon wrote:

?

About the successful women in porn thing, I think it is important to remember that Jenna Jameson, or any other "successful" porn star, is one in a million. The vast majority of women in porn do not have an experience like that - they do not make lots of money and live comfortably. They get paid relatively little (IMO), and abuse is common. I'm not saying all porn is like this, but anyone is themselves if they think it's all rosey and about sexual expression.


This is a very interesting documentary, though I warn you it is disturbing. It's about a woman who goes to America to enter the porn industry, it basically just follows her around to see what it's like. It shows how insidious situations can be where there is a major power imbalance:

NSFW. Contains coercion and rape.

http://hcdocu.blogspot.com/

Could anyone point me of the direction of Ben UFO's comments on misogyny in electronic music and what not, if you please.

grooki wrote: This is a very interesting documentary, though I warn you it is disturbing. It's about a woman who goes to America to enter the porn industry, it basically just follows her around to see what it's like. It shows how insidious situations can be where there is a major power imbalance:

http://hcdocu.blogspot.com/

This might be one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen. It's fucking terrifying man, really. I'm about half way through and almost in tears. I think I just essentially watched a rape.

Jesus.

EDIT: The music is pretty on point though.

Kochari wrote:

grooki wrote: This is a very interesting documentary, though I warn you it is disturbing. It's about a woman who goes to America to enter the porn industry, it basically just follows her around to see what it's like. It shows how insidious situations can be where there is a major power imbalance:

http://hcdocu.blogspot.com/

This might be one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen. It's fucking terrifying man, really. I'm about half way through and almost in tears. I think I just essentially watched a rape.

Jesus.

EDIT: The music is pretty on point though.

I'm really sorry, I should have made the warning more explicit before I posted it. I have now edited it.

That is rape, essentially. And the whole atmosphere is that that is totally normal, which is really fucked up. And just the way that all those guys talk about her while she is there, like she is an animal for auction and can't understand what they are saying. How can anyone say this is healthy and how can anyone say that in those situations she is really in control? There is no other "industry" were employees can be routinely treated like that. The other terrifying thing about it is that she has the documentary guy and camera man there, so she has allies there. What must it be like when women enter those situations by themselves?

grooki wrote: This is a very interesting documentary, though I warn you it is disturbing. It's about a woman who goes to America to enter the porn industry, it basically just follows her around to see what it's like. It shows how insidious situations can be where there is a major power imbalance:

http://hcdocu.blogspot.com/

Shit, I remember watching that years ago and it totally changed the way I looked at porn. Just look at all the guys in the doc, essentially, grooming, old, slimes, even rapists, making a living this way.

grooki wrote: I'm really sorry, I should have made the warning more explicit before I posted it. I have now edited it.

That is rape, essentially. And the whole atmosphere is that that is totally normal, which is really fucked up. And just the way that all those guys talk about her while she is there, like she is an animal for auction and can't understand what they are saying. How can anyone say this is healthy and how can anyone say that in those situations she is really in control? There is no other "industry" were employees can be routinely treated like that. The other terrifying thing about it is that she has the documentary guy and camera man there, so she has allies there. What must it be like when women enter those situations by themselves?

Yeah, that was one of the things she kept saying, "I'm really glad you guys are here"
And she still got raped.

I think what really got to me was the change from the start, when everyone seemed really nice (in a horribly sleazy way of course) and complimenting her, and her saying she was doing it for herself and her daughter, to at the end, as the narrator said she was "fractured from herself". "You want me to suck all of them??" and a nervous smile.

I am glad I saw it though. Totally put me off porn for life.

i think ultimately within any sphere of life there are abusers and those that allow themselves to be abused but this is always the minority of people

women and men are complex with their sexual desires and there is no right and wrong and the whole subject of objectification in porn/bdsm etc is tied up within the fact that many people are hardwired to get off on things that to others they see as abuse...

im not as articulate as many of you guys in this thread on this but basically within life sex is never far away from peoples thoughts and ties into everything in greater or lesser amounts...it permeates through into everything and is related to it

for many humiliation and cruelty are heaven...within a consenting relationship that is but then usually the enjoyment of said individual is tied into how real and visceral the fantasy can be...

i believe many women are hardwired to enjoy being dominated not just in a sexual sense but in life by a man..this doesnt make them weak and it isnt wrong...its just a preference.....i suspect quite often the crusades are underpinned by a concious effort to escape the subconcious mindset trying to steer them in the other direction and the frustration that goes with it (a bit like being in the closet)..obviously not all though

i hope that is worthy of adding to magmas and others far superior contributions :L

I'm with you up until this point.

Pistonsbeneath wrote: i believe many women are hardwired to enjoy being dominated not just in a sexual sense but in life by a man..this doesnt make them weak and it isnt wrong...its just a preference

Women aren't hardwired to enjoy domination, they're conditioned to, though complex sexuality would certainly include those who enjoy it, and those who don't.

But anyways, not all women in porn are battered and abused of course. Belladonna, for example, is a huge star, and she enjoys expressing her sexuality on camera and working in the porn industry (though she actually doesn't perform with others, she just directs now.) Tera Patrick runs her own company, Jenna Haze and Sasha Grey can also be included in that as well and even more who I won't bother to name. The majority of the porn consumers I know of are more interested in seeing women who enjoy themselves, and enjoy being on camera, then women who seem pressured into it or uncomfortable. Just depends.

lace, pretty much all those women you mentioned have done interviews where they talked about how horrid the porn industry is to women. just because a few women made wads of cash off of it, doesn't mean that's how it is for all of them. and it certainly doesn't mean they didn't get treated like animals in the process. of course they're going to look like they're enjoying on camera, that's what they're getting paid to do... you never know what is going on off camera right before or right after.

No not pretty much all. The only person who I remember being interviewed about how horrid the porn industry was is Belladonna, whose example was that none of her male co-workers seemed to view her as a person. She enjoys the industry and her work, what she doesn't enjoy is having to frame her sexuality through a heterosexual male lens.This is why she moved on to directing/producing. Like I said, these women aren't battered victims, but some definitely are being exploited, I'm not gonna deny that. It's up to the consumer to weed out the quality.

kingGhost wrote:lace, pretty much all those women you mentioned have done interviews where they talked about how horrid the porn industry is to women. just because a few women made wads of cash off of it, doesn't mean that's how it is for all of them. and it certainly doesn't mean they didn't get treated like animals in the process. of course they're going to look like they're enjoying on camera, that's what they're getting paid to do... you never know what is going on off camera right before or right after.

Precisely. This is the whole problem with the "porn is fine if all the performers are enjoying it" argument. You can't know. As that documentary shows, behind the scenes can be a very very unequal situation where coercion, bullying and rape is modus operandi.

LACE wrote:No not pretty much all. The only person who I remember being interviewed about how horrid the porn industry was is Belladonna, whose example was that none of her male co-workers seemed to view her as a person. She enjoys the industry and her work, what she doesn't enjoy is having to frame her sexuality through a heterosexual male lens.This is why she moved on to directing/producing. Like I said, these women aren't battered victims, but some definitely are being exploited, I'm not gonna deny that. It's up to the consumer to weed out the quality.

Firstly, the most important point here is how many women in the porn industry end up with lots of money, directing films?. The answer is a negligable fraction. So you can't quote them as being standards of the industry - they are the exception, and a very very small one. The documentary shows the experience of a no-name (her name is Felicity btw), who is treated as such.

Secondly, those famous women who have made it have said that it is a bad situation. For instance both Jenna Jameson and Brianna Banks have said that the industry is abusive, and they are two of the most successful women in it.

Thirdly, as for the consumer to weed out "quality", I think (I hope) what you mean is it's up to the consumer to weed out ethically produced porn. Unfortunately I don't think most people are interested in what happens behind the scenes - most people take the "it looks like she's enjoying it" line, and stop their thinking there.

grooki wrote:
Firstly, the most important point here is how many women in the porn industry end up with lots of money, directing films?. The answer is a negligable fraction. So you can't quote them as being standards of the industry - they are the exception, and a very very small one. The documentary shows the experience of a no-name (her name is Felicity btw), who is treated as such.

Secondly, those famous women who have made it have said that it is a bad situation. For instance both Jenna Jameson and Brianna Banks have said that the industry is abusive, and they are two of the most successful women in it.

Thirdly, as for the consumer to weed out "quality", I think (I hope) what you mean is it's up to the consumer to weed out ethically produced porn. Unfortunately I don't think most people are interested in what happens behind the scenes - most people take the "it looks like she's enjoying it" line, and stop their thinking there.

I've already acknowledged that the porn industry is a flawed one, where many women are victimized and coerced into uncomfortable situations. I think Felicity's motives need to be taken into account when throwing her story into the mix. She wasn't doing this for her pleasure, to explore aspects of her sexuality, or because she enjoys fucking on camera. The reason why she was so easily coerced into sketchy situations and undesirable roles was due to the fact that she felt it necessary in order to earn enough to support her and her daughter. Her treatment I can't justify, but she was a broken soul. She allowed herself to get manipulated, she made the wrong decisions. Initially a goal was set, limitations known. She kept sacrificing them because she felt she had no other choice. I don't want you to get the impression that I'm on board with the way they treated her, and I noticed the significant power imbalance in the documentary, it was complete bullshit. It's obvious that few women reach the status of Jenna Jameson, but there's also a significant portion who do love their work. Mainstream porn isn't all that's available, few people really wish to go beyond what's spoonfed to them. Believe it or not there are women who are making a killing doing porn and are still relatively unnoticed and unexploited. To imply that Felicity's story is every woman's just isn't the truth. Society has a hard time accepting the fact that some women are in control of their lives and sexuality, want to make a profit and aren't doing so out of exploitation. I mean, it's all still rather taboo..

LACE wrote:

grooki wrote:
Firstly, the most important point here is how many women in the porn industry end up with lots of money, directing films?. The answer is a negligable fraction. So you can't quote them as being standards of the industry - they are the exception, and a very very small one. The documentary shows the experience of a no-name (her name is Felicity btw), who is treated as such.

Secondly, those famous women who have made it have said that it is a bad situation. For instance both Jenna Jameson and Brianna Banks have said that the industry is abusive, and they are two of the most successful women in it.

Thirdly, as for the consumer to weed out "quality", I think (I hope) what you mean is it's up to the consumer to weed out ethically produced porn. Unfortunately I don't think most people are interested in what happens behind the scenes - most people take the "it looks like she's enjoying it" line, and stop their thinking there.

I've already acknowledged that the porn industry is a flawed one, where many women are victimized and coerced into uncomfortable situations. I think Felicity's motives need to be taken into account when throwing her story into the mix. She wasn't doing this for her pleasure, to explore aspects of her sexuality, or because she enjoys fucking on camera. The reason why she was so easily coerced into sketchy situations and undesirable roles was due to the fact that she felt it necessary in order to earn enough to support her and her daughter. Her treatment I can't justify, but she was a broken soul. She allowed herself to get manipulated, she made the wrong decisions. Initially a goal was set, limitations known. She kept sacrificing them because she felt she had no other choice. I don't want you to get the impression that I'm on board with the way they treated her, and I noticed the significant power imbalance in the documentary, it was complete bullshit. It's obvious that few women reach the status of Jenna Jameson, but there's also a significant portion who do love their work. Mainstream porn isn't all that's available, few people really wish to go beyond what's spoonfed to them. Believe it or not there are women who are making a killing doing porn and are still relatively unnoticed and unexploited. To imply that Felicity's story is every woman's just isn't the truth. Society has a hard time accepting the fact that some women are in control of their lives and sexuality, want to make a profit and aren't doing so out of exploitation. I mean, it's all still rather taboo..

I'm not saying that all porn is abuse, or that all woman don't enjoy being in porn. It is great that there are many women who enjoy having sex on camera, good for them. That doesn't mean we should ignore what goes on in mainstream (or alternative) porn for a lot of women. Her motives are common motives to many, which resulted in her putting herself in a terrible situation where she puts her dignity and safety in the backseat. Blaming her for getting into that situation is ingenuous at best - the porn industry does not hide the fact that it takes advantage of women in difficult situations, who often do not really know what they are getting into. In fact, often that is a big selling point.

It bothers me that people think voicing serious concern about this sort of thing is tantamount to saying all porn is bad, that women have no sexuality of their own and that they are are just victims.

grooki wrote:

LACE wrote:

grooki wrote:
Firstly, the most important point here is how many women in the porn industry end up with lots of money, directing films?. The answer is a negligable fraction. So you can't quote them as being standards of the industry - they are the exception, and a very very small one. The documentary shows the experience of a no-name (her name is Felicity btw), who is treated as such.

Secondly, those famous women who have made it have said that it is a bad situation. For instance both Jenna Jameson and Brianna Banks have said that the industry is abusive, and they are two of the most successful women in it.

Thirdly, as for the consumer to weed out "quality", I think (I hope) what you mean is it's up to the consumer to weed out ethically produced porn. Unfortunately I don't think most people are interested in what happens behind the scenes - most people take the "it looks like she's enjoying it" line, and stop their thinking there.

I've already acknowledged that the porn industry is a flawed one, where many women are victimized and coerced into uncomfortable situations. I think Felicity's motives need to be taken into account when throwing her story into the mix. She wasn't doing this for her pleasure, to explore aspects of her sexuality, or because she enjoys fucking on camera. The reason why she was so easily coerced into sketchy situations and undesirable roles was due to the fact that she felt it necessary in order to earn enough to support her and her daughter. Her treatment I can't justify, but she was a broken soul. She allowed herself to get manipulated, she made the wrong decisions. Initially a goal was set, limitations known. She kept sacrificing them because she felt she had no other choice. I don't want you to get the impression that I'm on board with the way they treated her, and I noticed the significant power imbalance in the documentary, it was complete bullshit. It's obvious that few women reach the status of Jenna Jameson, but there's also a significant portion who do love their work. Mainstream porn isn't all that's available, few people really wish to go beyond what's spoonfed to them. Believe it or not there are women who are making a killing doing porn and are still relatively unnoticed and unexploited. To imply that Felicity's story is every woman's just isn't the truth. Society has a hard time accepting the fact that some women are in control of their lives and sexuality, want to make a profit and aren't doing so out of exploitation. I mean, it's all still rather taboo..

I'm not saying that all porn is abuse, or that all woman don't enjoy being in porn. It is great that there are many women who enjoy having sex on camera, good for them. That doesn't mean we should ignore what goes on in mainstream (or alternative) porn for a lot of women. Her motives are common motives to many, which resulted in her putting herself in a terrible situation where she puts her dignity and safety in the backseat. Blaming her for getting into that situation is ingenuous at best - the porn industry does not hide the fact that it takes advantage of women in difficult situations, who often do not really know what they are getting into. In fact, often that is a big selling point.

It bothers me that people think voicing serious concern about this sort of thing is tantamount to saying all porn is bad, that women have no sexuality of their own and that they are are just victims.

I get your angle. Some women may end up in porn because of their sexual appetites, positive self-image and other completely healthy reasons, but also some may end up there out of deperation and lack of better options. Felicity wasn't very keen though. In the United States, I knew a few girls in the industry who were doing great for themselves, and I failed to see so much of the victimized stereotype- not to say that they don't exist, but I use their experiences as my frame of reference. I do think something needs to change about the business. Perhaps if the stigma placed on porn performers and sex can evolve, then maybe we can create a safer, more respectable industry.