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Jubscarz wrote:Not been following it but was disgusted by the front pages of the papers the day after the killing. The pictures were reminiscent of what Saddam's regime was condemned for.

exactlly man. and now, like then, the US is pulling the fuckn strings.

the blood is on everyones hands, it dont discriminate.

Pangaea wrote:

Product wrote:are you fucking serious? the people who were kidnapped and executed were innocent, saddam killed countless of innocent people.

Fucking serious about what? I'm not saying Saddam wasn't a monster. As Jubscarz says, by playing his execution video over and over (bar the bit he actually hangs, and I reckon there'd be some channels that would if they could), you get a nasty feeling that we're just stooping down to their level of public executions and what have you. Was there actually any reason to show that stuff, apart from to sensationalise the issue?

oh i got you. i thought you were saying saddam shouldn't have been executed.

pretty content in your knee-jerkism

i think maybe you should consider why you hate saddam, and who told you why to hate him

i mean there are a lot of dudes doing a lot of fucked up shit all over the world

why do YOU care about saddam, and who told you that its important to care about this particular person

I get the feeling that Saddam would have to be a very bad man indeed if he could exceed the amount of casualties since the invasion. 600,000 in just under 4 years out of a population of 26,783,383 (according to google) means that about 1 in 30 of the population have been killed. If he'd been killing his own people at that rate, I could probably have invaded Iraq on my own.

The majority of deaths he caused were in retaliation against the Marsh arabs from the early 90's invasion who were encouraged to rise up against him with the allies saying "we'll be right behind you" as they headed back to the aircraft carriers. These same bodies were used when found by the allies to indicate what an evil dictator he was, although they should assume some culpability for these actions.

I'd say that if a huge amount of the population were looking to violently overthrow a regime, pretty much any government on earth would react similarly. The guy's still an arsehole tyrant, but some perspective is required here.

Apparently Darfur has rich reserves of oil under it, and I imagine that it'll be much easier to go for the land grab once the genocide's done with.

And I thought I was cynical.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... 65,00.html

Puts the price per dead Iraqi as a million dollars and some nice tips on how to make ridiculous profits from war.

i'm doing my dissertation on darfur, and there's no oil there. the only reason why the global north would intervene is to protect the lives of some of the poorest people on the planet. that's why our governments are doing fuck all.

Product wrote:oh i got you. i thought you were saying saddam shouldn't have been executed.

I was.

paolo wrote:i'm doing my dissertation on darfur, and there's no oil there. the only reason why the global north would intervene is to protect the lives of some of the poorest people on the planet. that's why our governments are doing fuck all.

"With the signing of the treaty last January, and the prospect of stability for most of war-torn Sudan, new seismographic studies were undertaken by foreign oil companies in April. These studies had the effect of doubling Sudan's estimated oil reserves, bringing them to at least 563 million barrels. They could yield substantially more. Khartoum claims the amount could total as much as 5 billion barrels. That's still a pittance compared to the 674 billion barrels of proven oil reserves possessed by the six Persian Gulf countries -- Saudi Arabia, Iraq, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iran, and Qatar.

The rush for oil is wreaking havoc on Sudan. Oil revenues to Khartoum have been about $1 million a day, exactly the amount which the government funnels into arms -- helicopters and bombers from Russia, tanks from Poland and China, missiles from Iran. Thus, oil is fueling the genocide in Darfur at every level."

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0819-26.htm

"Newly discovered resources have made Sudan of great interest to U.S. corporations. It is believed to have oil reserves rivaling those of Saudi Arabia. It has large deposits of natural gas. In addition, it has one of the three largest deposits of high-purity uranium in the world, along with the fourth-largest deposits of copper.

Unlike Saudi Arabia, however, the Sudanese government has retained its independence of Washington. Unable to control Sudan’s oil policy, the U.S. imperialist government has made every effort to stop its development of this valuable resource. China, on the other hand, has worked with Sudan in providing the technology for exploration, drilling, pumping and the building of a pipeline and buys much of Sudan’s oil."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... cleId=2592

You might want to do a bit more reading

these are interesting articles, especially the first one. but most of the oil in Sudan is in the south and has been a major factor in the war between the government and the sudan people's liberation movement over the last 20 years. the government's war against the darfuri people is being paid for mainly by oil money, but the oil isn't actually in darfur.

this is 2007, and media exploitation is a critical part of warfare these days. regardless of whether sadaam was innocent or guilty, the journalistic standard just decended even further into the sewer. now that executions are free fodder for television, whats next? public torture?

sickening.

Parson wrote:pretty content in your knee-jerkism

i think maybe you should consider why you hate saddam, and who told you why to hate him

well as far as i know he didn't deny much in court. and the stuff he didn't deny it didn't seem like he felt he did anything wrong.

and why do i care? because no one with that kind of mindset should rule any country. it just boils down to human rights. not much has gone right these last few years, but i hardly think it was a mistake that he was executed. he may not have been executed for the right reasons or with the right motivations, but he was executed and in general i support that action.

^^ so in summary, the ends justified the means...

I find it helpful, whenever I'm inclined to believe such a line of thought, to re-evaluate what those means were....and what effect they will have in proportion to the effect of the "ends".

In this case, Saddam is dead and (to some), paid the debt of his crimes. To get to that point, though, a mockery was made of the Iraqi judicial system (some w/ Saddam's help, of course), religious tensions were exaggerated to the point where even the moderate Sunnis who disliked Saddam see him as the better alternative to their would-be Shia overlords, and the already laughable position of the US as the "moderating force" within Iraq was made even more outrageous.

I see these means as yeild far outlasting negative consequences for Iraq, than any "good" done by putting Saddam to death.

the propaganda machine wants you to want saddam dead

sure to say the iraqi people are pissed is understated, but the way they acted during the execution was totally not dignified. and then somebody just had to video it! can't say how i'd react in a emotional situation like this, but i feel it would have been more respectful in regards to all that died before and after saddam to get it done quietly/discreetly and move on.

Product wrote:well as far as i know he didn't deny much in court. and the stuff he didn't deny it didn't seem like he felt he did anything wrong.

and why do i care? because no one with that kind of mindset should rule any country. it just boils down to human rights. not much has gone right these last few years, but i hardly think it was a mistake that he was executed. he may not have been executed for the right reasons or with the right motivations, but he was executed and in general i support that action.

as far as i know he didnt say anything in court apart from the fact that he didn't recognise its authority and claimed to still be the legitimate president of iraq.

interesting firgure in provate eye - no. of people saddam was executed for killing = 150, no. of civillians killed in iraq since he was removed from power = 150,000.

think we'll get to see bush hanging from a noose any time soon?

why would you try so hard to buy into neocon pageantry