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sorry that wasn't meant to sound aggressive lol, just i don't think he cares about petitions at all, no matter how much media attention it gets

I'm not gonna reply to this tonight, I'd much rather do it on work's time rather than my own, but...


This has everything to do with what was before.

This has everything to do with the Dalai Lama's autocratic rule.

This is everything to do with wanting a democratic China.




Like nicenice said, what does Tibet want? If it's a democratic, multi-ethnic Chinese federation then I'm cool with that.

If it's like the Free Tibet campaign say on the website and a return to theocratic rule and the old feudal system, than fuck that. Chinese occupation is better than starvation.

Also Steph please don't think I'm having a go, it's all good natured.

Although, I do see Stephs point. Either way, before and now, human rights were and are being undermined. Although human rights across China were never the best to start with anyway.

The only reason I can see any western leaders getting involved is because of Chinese expansion instead of human rights.

And either way, asking Cameron to give two fucks about human rights is like asking an arsonist to put out a fire.

Not only is he from a party who made friends with stnuc like Pinochet when it suited them, he's also in charge of a country that's involved in a brutal occupation of Afganistan, as well as voting for the invasion of Iraq.

nicenice wrote:What does tibet want?

Theres your problem, no one cares what they want.

stephisaint wrote: I left it out because it seemed irrelevant and a diversion from my original post and topic. In the end I'm not asking for people to have an opinion on past social buddhist policy or pre-chinese political rule, just to maybe do something to help people suffering over there due to the current regieme. In the end as I see it personal opinions on the merit of past leaderships has little to do with changing the current situations for the better. Arguments and dwelling on the past always seem to hinder potential improvement rather than benefit any cause (again, palestine being a prime example).

firstly i believe what you're campaigning for is right. its not even an issue that torture and other abuses of human rights should in a perfect world be stamped out

so on that count yeah i entirely agree with you, but its not an unfair criticism of a charity or a campaign to question (thats how i see it, not necessarily undermining it- only its own responses to questioning can do that) its motives, and somewhat less cynically simply its plan of action say, after it has achieved one of its goals.

in this case, once Tibet is 'Free' (from chinese rule) what is the rest of the plan?

Iraq is arguably a more dangerous place for its own citizens, and now british and international citizens, reporters, cameramen, aid workers, diplomats, politicians etc., because the war removed one oppressive regime and led way for factions to fight over whats left. and after that??

its not unjustified to ask questions of these organisations, its answers to those questions are what give it the credibility it needs in order to gain support, to fight its toughest battles.

i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

alien pimp wrote:i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

You're miles off the mark mate. The question of an alternative system of organising Tibetan society is fundemental to the question of political indepedence in -all- national liberation struggles.

Also the fate of Tibet is tied to that of the Chinese working class now, there's no two ways about it. Anything other than a democratic, political revolution in China will be a no-hope chance for an independent Tibet.



True say.

tr0tsky wrote:

alien pimp wrote:i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

You're miles off the mark mate. The question of an alternative system of organising Tibetan society is fundemental to the question of political indepedence in -all- national liberation struggles.

Also the fate of Tibet is tied to that of the Chinese working class now, there's no two ways about it. Anything other than a democratic, political revolution in China will be a no-hope chance for an independent Tibet.



True say.

i can believe that.

so, this cameron dude... what's up with him actually?

alien pimp wrote:

tr0tsky wrote:

alien pimp wrote:i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

You're miles off the mark mate. The question of an alternative system of organising Tibetan society is fundemental to the question of political indepedence in -all- national liberation struggles.

Also the fate of Tibet is tied to that of the Chinese working class now, there's no two ways about it. Anything other than a democratic, political revolution in China will be a no-hope chance for an independent Tibet.



True say.

i can believe that.

so, this cameron dude... what's up with him actually?

so, this politics dude... what's up with him actually?

nicenice wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

tr0tsky wrote:

alien pimp wrote:i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

You're miles off the mark mate. The question of an alternative system of organising Tibetan society is fundemental to the question of political indepedence in -all- national liberation struggles.

Also the fate of Tibet is tied to that of the Chinese working class now, there's no two ways about it. Anything other than a democratic, political revolution in China will be a no-hope chance for an independent Tibet.



True say.

i can believe that.

so, this cameron dude... what's up with him actually?

so, this politics dude... what's up with him actually?

So, this chinaman dude... what's up with him actually?

tr0tsky wrote:

nicenice wrote:

alien pimp wrote:

tr0tsky wrote:

alien pimp wrote:i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

You're miles off the mark mate. The question of an alternative system of organising Tibetan society is fundemental to the question of political indepedence in -all- national liberation struggles.

Also the fate of Tibet is tied to that of the Chinese working class now, there's no two ways about it. Anything other than a democratic, political revolution in China will be a no-hope chance for an independent Tibet.



True say.

i can believe that.

so, this cameron dude... what's up with him actually?

so, this politics dude... what's up with him actually?

So, this chinaman dude... what's up with him actually?

Looks like hes trying to throw spaceships at Tibetans.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/ ... icle/9216/

Interesting read on Tibet.

On one side Tibetans are treated by their rulers as individuals incapable of exercising political judgement or of being free, and on the other side they are treated by their ‘friends’ in the pro-Tibet lobby as incapable of liberating themselves from this situation. Instead, they must be cared for and spoken up for by good, decent outsiders, much as PETA adopts baby seals in an attempt to prevent them from being killed by demented Canadians.

stephisaint wrote: - You disagree with the Dalai Lama, believe him to be a 'theocratic dictator' based on the writings on one (to be fair, distinguished) author and believe it is better to let the communist Chinese have the country.

Whilst I'm not going to continue about the postcard, because you're very quick to dismiss it as a single slip-up where as I think it's endemic across the whole Western notion of the Tibet crises, I don't understand why you think that my belief in the Dalai Lama as a dictator comes from just a single source.

Sure, I quoted him because he makes the arguement as concisely as anyone else.

But since you're a student and should be used to reading convoluted academic articles here's some more:

Anand, Dibyesh (2009) Strategic hypocrisy: the British imperial scripting of Tibet's geopolitical identity. Journal of Asian Studies, 68



http://eprints.wmin.ac.uk/6643/

The protests in and around Tibet in 2008 show that Tibet's status within China remains unsettled. The West is not an outsider to the Tibet question, which is defined primarily in terms of the debate over the status of Tibet vis-à-vis China. Tibet's modern geopolitical identity has been scripted by British imperialism. The changing dynamics of British imperial interests in India affected the emergence of Tibet as a (non)modern geopolitical entity. The most significant aspect of the British imperialist policy practiced in the first half of the twentieth century was the formula of “Chinese suzerainty/Tibetan autonomy.” This strategic hypocrisy, while nurturing an ambiguity in Tibet's status, culminated in the victory of a Western idea of sovereignty. It was China, not Tibet, that found the sovereignty talk most useful. The paper emphasizes the world-constructing role of contesting representations and challenges the divide between the political and the cultural, the imperial and the imaginative.

MC Goldstein (1997) - The snow lion and the dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama



MC Goldstein (1989) - A History of Modern Tibet - The Demise of The Lamaist State

You disagree with a postcard that is yes, politically incorrect, but has no bearing to the people suffering as a result of chinese opression in the country.

You're right, but it does mean that I don't want to support an organisation that resorts to racial stereotyping to make a political point.

Listen, I work (but only for the next 4 days!) as a political campaigner for a living. I design postcards all the time. And shit like that doesn't slip through the net by mistake.

You disagree with the Dalai Lama on a matter of opinion which is your right but again, this has no bearing on those imprisoned or being tortured right now. You describe him as a controlling dictator, but it seems strange that he was a dictator who made no militarised attempt to keep in possession of tibet.

You're right, it doesn't have any bearing on human rights abuses carried out by the Chinese state, but unless the Free Tibet campaign is offering an alternative form of Tibetan self-rule and autonomy than that which came before than I don't think anyone should support it.

It's not a "matter of opinion" that pre-Chinese occupation Tibet was not a Medieval society run by monk-barons.

He was not elected, he was chosen. There was no Parliament or representative democracy. He owned ALL of the land. Just because he didn't fight for his land make him less of an autocratic dictator.

Do you even believe in democracy, Steph?

You post a westerner's view/account on the state of Tibet before Chinese occupation

No, I present a political scientist's view of Tibet. A political scientist who has been to Dharamasala for fuck's sake.

Have you ever even met a Tibetan before?

...with no facts or figures, and describing taxes that are common worldwide, that WE pay as well.

If you're suggesting that the socio-economic situation in the UK is comparable to Lamaist Tibet you're bananas.

At least our farmers can own the land they work! Feudalism ended here in the 1700's. It's disgusting we'd justify it elsewhere.

Free Tibet reeks of Western arrogance and patronisation.

nicenice wrote:Free Tibet reeks of Western arrogance and patronisation.

Fucking STINKS of it.

meant it earlier like does anyone has any idea what's behind cameron's newfound love for tibet? any speculations in the press or wherever?

alien pimp wrote:i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

have you changed your mind on this yet?

noam wrote:

alien pimp wrote:i see the need of taking the chinese out of tibet as separate from the need to have a decent tibetan regime in independence

have you changed your mind on this yet?

The first part of that sounds uncomfortably like ethnic cleansing.