Dubstepforum.com

serox wrote:

nowaysj wrote:

daft tnuc wrote:Thanks for that S&S.

One question, there's always a difference between the volume level that Roger Nichols's Inspector is showing in my DAW and the bounced version when I open it in Soundforge.
For the tune I'm working on for instance, I have more than 3dB of headroom but in SF there are peaks at nearly 0 dB.
How is that and which one should I believe ?

Zoom way in in soundforge, are there actual samples at 0db, or just interpolated curves. Sry, haven't been in sound forge in a lizong time, can't recall how it actually looks.

I have noticed this also, what is interpolated curves?!

You can see this in Edison, in flstudio, so you can see for yourself. Samples are discreet points in amplitude and time so they are a fairly crude approximation of the actual curve of the sound wave. The actual peak of the wave can occur between two samples. Some editors, like Edison, show both actual sample points, and the theoretical wave they represent. You'll see two samples, and they're at relatively even hight, but the projected (interpolated) wave goes up and peaks and comes down between them.

Fak, I'm tired. Hope this is making sense.

This image should help.

You can see the waveform is not peaking at 0dB but clipping, although the discrete samples aren't. The reconstruction filter on your cd player or soundcard would clip.

Grab and read this;

http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/x-ism/

Thanks for the info on inter-samples guys!
I installed X-ism but it doesn't tell me more tho, peak level is the same as Inspector and the inter-samples clip indicator ain't flashing so I guess a -3 dB on the master will do the trick.

makemerich wrote:is pulling the master down different than grouping all channels and pulling them down except the master and leaving it at aprox 0?

I'd like to know the answer to this too!

Ascian wrote:

makemerich wrote:is pulling the master down different than grouping all channels and pulling them down except the master and leaving it at aprox 0?

I'd like to know the answer to this too!

Tell me you tried in the meantime and didn't just wait for someone to tell you ?

there is no audible difference in reference to my question, but i have been using my mobile setup and my event speakers are in storage, therefore i need a second opinion or a factual answer. but im wondering if there is possibly a different logarithm for the master fader or if all tracks summed yield different results, its a god damn legit question, so smart ass answers can suck it!

daft tnuc wrote:

Ascian wrote:

makemerich wrote:is pulling the master down different than grouping all channels and pulling them down except the master and leaving it at aprox 0?

I'd like to know the answer to this too!

Tell me you tried in the meantime and didn't just wait for someone to tell you ?

I think the question the guy was asking was in terms of gain structuring, do both methods give the same amount of headroom.

I was really baked when I added that I want to know to but I was more interested in a technical answer than just a yes or no.. I would never touch the master anyway just more out of interest!

You're better off leveling the peaky transient elements (percussives, snare drums, kicks, etc) in the mix and ride their inputs into the leveler to squeeze out more RMS volume, making your mix sound punchy and loud, but appearing fairly level, and retaining about -3dB headroom.

-I'm using Ableton Live, how do I do this? what do you mean Ride the inputs into the leveler. Limiter? Compressor?

Knowing that you should leave -3db headroom minimum for a ME, whats the difference between producing a track so it peaks at -3db with the master at 0, and producing a track with the peak at 0db then bringing down the master to -3db, Is one way better than the other?

Thanks

Wom

Read the moneyshot sticky.

I am completely fine with my question being ignored it is okay. it's all dandy. I am alright with it.

^honestly i would love to but i dont know what that option is :S... was waiting for an answer !

If you don't have the ability to select interleaved stereo files on export or render, your daw is most likely exporting interleaved stereo files.

Largely transients are the cause of clipping (read drums and vocal peaks, percussion etc), obviously any given mix will have a different level of transient information compared to the next mix.

Pulling the fader down by 3-6dB will have zero detrimental effect on a mix, it is post compression even if you have a compressor working on the master bus. This is suggested when someone has mixed into a limiter on the master bus (it is quite common) though not something I recommend. When you remove the limiter dependent on "how hard you mixed into the limiter" there may be tranisents that clip the master bus. As requesting rebalancing of every fader in the mix is not practical pulling back the master by the amount required to stop the incidence of clipping is a compromise that is well judged.

I agree built in headroom should be the best and default practice but as people learn the ropes of gain structure they will make mistakes and mix unnecessarily hot. Please bear in mind -18dBFS (on your DAW stereo digital output metering) roughly equates to a +4 dBu signal (1.23 volts) which roughly equates to +4vu on a large desk i.e. an SSL or NEVE. You would never has mixed on one of those consoles at +20 vu (you would have a broken needle), Typical mix output would hover around 0vu to +4vu on peaks. This comparative diagram displays vu, vs digital metering. vs electrical level (which afterall metering represents).

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun00/i ... gfaq.l.gif

When you have a mix peaks hovering around -15dBFS you will be getting a free monitoring upgrade as the tiny opamps in your DAC will not be approaching their working limits and therefore there will be less distortion and more clarity. In my experience opamps sound bad (especially the cheapest of the cheap ones) when they start getting close to their maximum signal capability, THD goes up. This means you will hear more details and more details being heard has got to be good ! Just whack your volume up to compensate.

Even if you self finalize after you will still reap the benefits of some reflection on your own seperate finalizing procedure by bringing the mix into a new project and running your processing on it.

Do not send clipped or limited tracks for mastering, it ties the mastering engineers hands and they will not be able to work effectively to retain punch whilst achieving competitive level.

This was written for DnB but applies to dubstep as well.

mastering drum and bass

Knowing that you should leave -3db headroom minimum for a ME, whats the difference between producing a track so it peaks at -3db with the master at 0, and producing a track with the peak at 0db then bringing down the master to -3db, Is one way better than the other?

You have essentially just reduced the dynamic range capability of the DAW by 3dB, at 24 bit this would theroretically then be 141dB which to all intents and purposes is irrelavent to audio quality in this exact scenario. Best thing to do is BUILD IN HEADROOM ON THE MASTER OUTPUT, small gain changes in a DAW either way (as long as post dynamics processing will be transparent). It is a matter of forging an allegance with the lesser evils and avoidance of the detrimental ways of working. (i.e. not clipping and having clearer monitoring) In practice most high quality DAC's have a dynamic range of around 120dB with the analogue electronics taken into consideration. I always find it slightly amusing when someone makes a big deal about a 24 bit file that is delivered literally looking like a solid black brick with a dynamic range of about 4dB. (or flat topped / squared off the the max)

cheers

Awesome post sir, thank you

:corncry

So I'm considering sending some of my tracks to be mastered and I have a few questions..

Considering I use FL studio, which I understand isn't widely used DAW for something like mastering, how do I go about sending the track? Should I export each channel as .wav file individually?

EthanIsMusic wrote:So I'm considering sending some of my tracks to be mastered and I have a few questions..

Considering I use FL studio, which I understand isn't widely used DAW for something like mastering, how do I go about sending the track? Should I export each channel as .wav file individually?

I've never done this, but that's what I would think to do, yes. But just cuz mastering engineers commonly use something other than FL, doesn't mean FL isn't good at it. Maximus is a pretty good mastering tool imo and its inside of FL Studio.

EthanIsMusic wrote:So I'm considering sending some of my tracks to be mastered and I have a few questions..

Considering I use FL studio, which I understand isn't widely used DAW for something like mastering, how do I go about sending the track? Should I export each channel as .wav file individually?

Speak with your ME regarding how they would like the track. Likely a stereo track at 24 or 32 bits. You can render a stereo wave file out of fruity, and set everything accordingly in the export dialog.

Most likely an ME would not like individual tracks.