Dubstepforum.com

His early stuff as Mark Caro/Tech Itch (with Decoder too) had some amazingly cinematic moments on the breakdowns.

And as for Blackdown's comment - I won't comment!

If people can bring something positive to the scene all the better, and as a decent engineer I'm sure he will.

KION wrote:
If people can bring something positive to the scene all the better, and as a decent engineer I'm sure he will.

That's such a dangerous way to think though... drum and bass over the past few years has proved you can't rely on engineering skill.

I agree with that to a degree, but its the speed of drum n bass that has f*ck*d itself up the a**e. As long as the bass isn't traded for louder and louder drums then I'll be happy - another of dnb's downfalls (and I'm sure others will be too).

Having no room to breath is largely a combination of louder drums and faster tempo .. His engineering style (at least his past stuff, not talking about recent output) is similar to that of Vex'd anyway, and nobody bats an eyelid over them do they (and rightly so).

I've noticed a couple of releases lately though (of actually brilliant tracks - and I'm not talking Vexd in case anyone tries to connect the previous example) that have made the mistake of loud as possible drums, and its very noticable that the bass has suffered for this, and the snares are paper thin. Hopefully the mistakes will be noticed by the relevant parties and not made again. That's a very big hope!

Have you lot actually read the thread topic! Ra!!!!! Let the music do the talkin.

Have you actually read the whole thread? cos thats the way it meandered. If I read the first and last post though I'd think wtf has that gotta do with it.

To put it back on track.... Why is there only A in the options...

(The tracks sound massive)

KION wrote:Have you actually read the whole thread? cos thats the way it meandered. If I read the first and last post though I'd think wtf has that gotta do with it.

How the thread pan's out is nothin to do with the original question. A question was asked about H.E.N.C.H not Tech itch."Comprende?"

i heard HENCH have their own gym and workout together to live up to their namesake

you lot should put together a travellin system, rootage

MRJIGGYFLY wrote:Proper dark ,evil bizness

They got Tech Itch on board, for those who know, so hopefully more devil music on the way!!!!!!!

I added that bit initially. Where they went with it did stray from my point.
I like the darker sound that I heard from you guys, and after reading on headhunters myspace site that he was making tunes with Tech, I thought people might like to know, thats all!!

It was made clear to everyone later in the thread that Tech was not part of your crew.If my initial post seemed to suggest that , my bad!!!

Again, the HENCH shit I've heard is bad, got a proper introduction on Wedges' show last week, but still I added that part about Tech for people who hadn't read the myspace site.

Anyway, I'm just hoping for more dark , nasty music !!!!!

Peace!!!!!!

ThinKing wrote:Yea what's up with you and the idea of DnB producers making dubstep Martin? You really really seem to hate the idea, and I just can't fathom why.

Another time you said you hated the idea of producers who were established in 'other scenes' coming in and "parodying dubstep" - I've never understood what this insular approach was all about.

For fuck's sake, Tech Itch is a phenomenal engineer - he's mixed down all sorts of stuff, DnB and other, so to slag him off just cos he mainly produces DnB in his own studio is a little short-sighted IMO.

There are always exceptions, but in general creatively, drum & bass is currently in a shocking state compared to its own past. I don't say that lightly - until recently I worked for Knowledge for three years, striving to find the best in the scene.

Compare Full Cycle now to it's back cat. Clipz' recent stuff versus say 'Soul in Motion' or 'Warhead.'

Compare Metalheadz now to the 'Metropolis/Drumz 95'' era. Andy C circa '31 Seconds' versus his sets now.

Compare Formation Record's circa The Lighter Tune to say Generation Dub's output on the label.

Can you actually say in the three case above, that new school d&b is better than it's past?

To look into specifics, I find new school d&b rhythmically stunted. Apart from the odd exception (Subfocus and Chase & Status used the odd ragga pattern recently), d&b is either reduced to the simplest kick-snare-kick-snare 2step beats, or re-hashing edits of old breaks.

Sonically it's in even worse health. Liquid d&b is tepid and formulaic: the worst tedium of formula funky 'ouse at 175bpm.

Cliches like the Amen break, the Reese stab or samples from hardcore records made over 15 years ago are continually re-hashed.

As for the dark stuff, it's the worst offender. Full of noizy, distorted, empty whiteboy male rage.

Culturally it's boring - I've written three years of d&b features, trying to make it sound interesting. Its raves have lost the glorious multiculturalism of it's roots. It's harder, faster, noisier, louder new school happy hardcore for the pill head massive. Play one of those tunes in a club in some of jungle's birthplaces, say Hackney or Peckham, and you'd get linched.

Throughout d&b there's a total emphasis of engineering over soul, sonics over emotion, mixdowns over ideas. "oh don't Pendulum have the greatest digital mixdowns...". And what? What percentage of most clubbers own monitors or could even tell you what a mixdown is?!

I like a well made record like the best of them: engineering = impact in the club, fair enough. But when sonic engineering superceeds ideas or freedom to experiment with decent rhythms, vibes or structure ( new school d&b arrangement formula 101 = 32 bar intro... 16 bar drop... bassline and drums in together... roll for two sets of 32... second drop... 32 bars at end for DJ mixout) then it's cart before horse as far as i'm concerned.

Bon Jovi, Barbera Strisand or Celine Dion albums are probably amazingly mixed, probably amazingly mixed in studios that would piss on every single studio in d&b throughout all time, given the expenses no doubt available to these acts, but yet would you argue those acts are actually musically vaild on engineering grounds alone? So why would you do it for Tech Itch?

So there's a few reasons why I can't back new school d&b in general: culturally, rhymically, sonically and most of all, because its heart is run by studio engineers and not musical visionaries.

I accept your point about being insular, dubstep should be open to all. But if d&b producers can't keep their own house in order, what hope for their involvement in dubstep?

i think with any music once it gets to a level where people can actually make a decent living off it - i.e the top end dnb people - hype / andy c / roni size then the music itself suffers, because they are governed by market forces and they are in it purely for the money, resulting in very formulaic stuff.

Spaceboy wrote:i think with any music once it gets to a level where people can actually make a decent living off it - i.e the top end dnb people - hype / andy c / roni size then the music itself suffers, because they are governed by market forces and they are in it purely for the money, resulting in very formulaic stuff.

yeah. kinda gutting aint it?

its only natural...dubstep could quite easily follow a similar path...as u state urself the similiarities between dubstep now and jungle back then are quite alarming...whats to say dubstep wont pan out in the same way jungle did...

Spaceboy wrote:whats to say dubstep wont pan out in the same way jungle did...

well exactly. luckily i dont believe in fate...

Jakes wrote:

KION wrote:Have you actually read the whole thread? cos thats the way it meandered. If I read the first and last post though I'd think wtf has that gotta do with it.

How the thread pan's out is nothin to do with the original question. A question was asked about H.E.N.C.H not Tech itch."Comprende?"

Well regardless it's fuelled debate of a wider picture. "comprende"?

Blackdown wrote:

Spaceboy wrote:whats to say dubstep wont pan out in the same way jungle did...

well exactly. luckily i dont believe in fate...

not about fate, rather economics...

i hear there are labels out there who are considered absolutely cutting edge, breaking new music / artists who find it impossible to breakeven.

yet labels such as ram etc must be making some good money...due to making that same rubbish which sells...

what will be very interesting is to see what happens next in dnb.

Martin, I agree 100% with what you have written, it echoes how I feel d&b has travelled for me over the last decade and so. Yup, a lot a dnb, the vast majority of it, to me, sounds like an over compressed crunchy mess, more akin to 'Synth and Snare' than to 'Drum and Bass'.

The bit that I don't get with your wonderful writing is, who said we were looking forward to Tech Itch making Dubstep because of his engineering skills? To be perfectly honest I'm not that keen on TI's output of late, but that doesn't take away from the fact he has made classics and retains the ability to do so. Perhaps with fresh inspiration from the Dubstep scene he could make absolutely blinding timeless classics?

Or should we write him off because he has made tunes with reeces before?

luke.envoy wrote:i heard HENCH have their own gym and workout together to live up to their namesake

you lot should put together a travellin system, rootage

Lol! Yeah man, every day in the gym.... That's all i do push weight's an make Dubstep. Easy Mr Envoy. U cool mate.

Pete Bubonic wrote:who said we were looking forward to Tech Itch making Dubstep because of his engineering skills?

...

ThinKing wrote:For fuck's sake, Tech Itch is a phenomenal engineer - he's mixed down all sorts of stuff, DnB and other, so to slag him off just cos he mainly produces DnB in his own studio is a little short-sighted IMO.

Blackdown wrote:

Pete Bubonic wrote:who said we were looking forward to Tech Itch making Dubstep because of his engineering skills?

...

ThinKing wrote:For fuck's sake, Tech Itch is a phenomenal engineer - he's mixed down all sorts of stuff, DnB and other, so to slag him off just cos he mainly produces DnB in his own studio is a little short-sighted IMO.

hahahaha rumbled.
okay well I can't talk for all of us.
And Tech Itch is a good engineer

Seriously though, Martin you know as well as I do Thinking is pointing that out to show that Tech Itch can be versatile, that his engineering skills are not just limited to making an amen and hotpants break sound as crunchy as possible.

And my point is, it's in his history to make new sounds and push genres forward, it's not just good production skills he has got.

Anyway, if we get down to the cold hard facts, this is going to happen, he is going to produce Dubstep, my question is, if he makes something good, worthy of praise, are you going to acknowledge that or point out how stagnant you think DnB is?