The Great Vinyl vs. CDJ vs. Software Controller Debate

[slothrop]

Excellent points. The real issue to me with all of the new technology is that DJing has become a more accessible venue. While this may not seem like a terrible thing right away, everyone starts getting into it, everyone thinks they're a DJ, DJs have to fight for recognition now more than ever, this new generation of DJs who hasn't learned all of the finer points of DJing are willing to do whatever it takes to get gigs, promote the shit out of themselves, and play for little to no money. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but around Central Texas, many of the promoters seem to love the fact that they can hire these nobody kids on their laptops to come mix for no money, regardless of the fact that they don't know how to work the crowd. I've seen this trend HARD in a city a bit south of here, and it seems the general EDM scene out there just has DRASTICALLY lowered standards because of this, and don't really understand what a good DJ SHOULD be doing during their sets.

I guess I'm an optimist but I reckon in the long run promoters are going to realize that if someone's got no idea of how to put together a set then they might as well put a CD on, and people are actually have to think a bit about the difference between a good DJ and a shit DJ and what it actually means.

Kind of like the way that DJs themselves didn't kill off live music like a lot of people thought they would in the 60s and 70s...

[Redderious]

Although the crowd won't know if your doing it or not, automatic beatmatching is completely retarded. It doesn't take much effort at all to do it manually and i really frown upon Djs who use a computer to do it for them. I think using an automatic sync of the tempos is pushing it.

Frees DJs up to do other things creatively. The laptop DJs who take advantage of that time (and I've certainly seen some around my area) are the ones who impress me. If you're admitting it doesn't take much effort at all, then why insist that skipping that step to do other things is retarded? I have a few friends who throw down on their controllers, and can come rock my CD decks as well.

That's a good point, i might of been a little harsh with my wording. I'll rephrase it though. The reason you should manually beat match and sync tempos imo is because *you* should be the one doing the mixing, a computer shouldn't be mixing for you. Imagine in the future they have automatic equalizers and gain controls. Sure that's freeing up time to plan the next mix better and determine what features/fx you should use, but don't you think that's taking away from the whole experience? Now that's a lot more drastic than auto beatmatch but it's only one step ahead in the automated mixing business..

[slothrop]

But as I understand it, how a DJ uses EQ is a creative decision - it's part of the individuality of their set, and something that changes the character of the mix.

Whereas with beatmatching everyone essentially wants to do the same thing ie everyone wants to try to get the tunes going exactly in sync. Its a skill to do it manually but it's not a creative or individual thing.

[B-Frank]

But as I understand it, how a DJ uses EQ is a creative decision - it's part of the individuality of their set, and something that changes the character of the mix.

Whereas with beatmatching everyone essentially wants to do the same thing ie everyone wants to try to get the tunes going exactly in sync. Its a skill to do it manually but it's not a creative or individual thing.

Regardless whether it is creative (though you can/have to be creative with when you bring the tune in and beat match) it is part of the skill of DJ'ing. If people are going to sit there and hit beat match buttons and mix tunes you might as well just stick a CD on.

I think people need to realise there is line between doing a live set using your laptop and creating fantastic rearrangement of songs because in my opinion that is a joy to watch but DJ'ing should not be done on laptops with funny controllers as it is not DJ'ing (DJ=Disc Jockey.. Not Laptop fiddler).

Maybe it's me being part of the older generation but you can shove your laptops and gay controllers up your rear ends because when I go to a rave I want to see a DJ.

[slothrop]

Regardless whether it is creative (though you can/have to be creative with when you bring the tune in and beat match) it is part of the skill of DJ'ing. If people are going to sit there and hit beat match buttons and mix tunes you might as well just stick a CD on.

If the only skill a DJ has is the ability to get two tunes going at the same speed then you might just as well stick a CD on anyway.

Maybe it's me being part of the older generation but you can shove your laptops and gay controllers up your rear ends because when I go to a rave I want to see a DJ.

Most of the best DJ sets I've seen, I've had no idea whether the DJ was using ableton or CDs or playing everything on a wind up gramophone because I've been in the middle of a crowd of people going nuts, not leaning over the decks thinking "wow, he really got that mix very cleanly, that's very impressive."

[slothrop]

Open question - if the original way of mixing had used ableton or something similar to get the tunes in time automatically, and DJs had been playing like that for years and then someone invented a setup that let them do it manually, would your response be
a) "wow, this is brilliant, everyone should do this from now on" or
b) "well it's technically quite impressive but ultimately it's a bit pointless"?

[AJGR]

the problem i have with digital DJ's is the effects, the looping and general butchering of tunes. playing 4 tunes at the same time and having switch ups every 16 bars just sounds shit to me. i think what style of music you listen to plays a big part too. i'm a lover of all things deep and that music works better with 2 decks and a mixer. if your into Skrillex and stuff like that you probably don't see the effects as gimmicks but as sick soundz.

[Huts]

i think being able to beatmatch is only part of the argument. when it comes down to it a person using sync and a veteran DJ (especially in a genre with hardly varying BPMs) are going to be syncing their tracks in the same amount of time. The difference is the guy on the decks can realistically change platforms without having to relearn (or learn for the first time) how to mix (ive seen beer spilled on laptops). and he's hopefully selected his tunes a little more meticulously, because burning shit CDs is a waste of time and money as is buying waste vinyls. if you want to use a controller because you think it'll allow you to be more creative (tell this to andy c, dj friction, youngsta, n-type etc) then more power to you.

but for YOUR benefit, learn to properly mix on so you don't miss out on gigs when you can't bring your controller. so you can mix without having to stare at waveforms and BPM readouts. and god forbid something happens to your controller you can continue the party

[B-Frank]

Regardless whether it is creative (though you can/have to be creative with when you bring the tune in and beat match) it is part of the skill of DJ'ing. If people are going to sit there and hit beat match buttons and mix tunes you might as well just stick a CD on.

If the only skill a DJ has is the ability to get two tunes going at the same speed then you might just as well stick a CD on anyway.

Maybe it's me being part of the older generation but you can shove your laptops and gay controllers up your rear ends because when I go to a rave I want to see a DJ.

Most of the best DJ sets I've seen, I've had no idea whether the DJ was using ableton or CDs or playing everything on a wind up gramophone because I've been in the middle of a crowd of people going nuts, not leaning over the decks thinking "wow, he really got that mix very cleanly, that's very impressive."

Well you clearly are not a DJ then are you because a lot of people I know (some of which aren't even DJ's) can tell when a DJ is mixing like a god or whatever. You will be surprised how many people (especially at a dubstep rave) go and appreciate the mixing. Maybe not if your a skrillex robo-mosher but a lot of the people who have been in the scene for a while take time to appreciate it.

Also, "if the only skill a DJ has..." I never suggested it was but I am assuming you are not talking from experience because it is tricky at times. There is obviously a lot more to do with mixing than beatmatching but it is an art that has been round for a long time, it helps separate the people who have learned their trade mixing and the newbies who pick up a laptop, click beatmatch and think they are a DJ'ing god.

[B-Frank]

if you want to use a controller because you think it'll allow you to be more creative (tell this to andy c, dj friction, youngsta, n-type etc) then more power to you.

but for YOUR benefit, learn to properly mix on so you don't miss out on gigs when you can't bring your controller. so you can mix without having to stare at waveforms and BPM readouts. and god forbid something happens to your controller you can continue the party

To the auto beatmatch controller people in this thread... Andy C doesn't pull in massive crowd's because he gets 3 tracks going on a laptop and clicks beat match. He draws massive crowd's because he is a complete and utter don of the decks. He can happily spin 3 vinyls and completely fuck a club up.

Just can't help but think we are going to see actual DJ'ing lost to the computer age, if it does our scene will be a lot worse off for it.

[Redderious]

I just posted a mix in the mixing section. [NOT A PROMOTION] this thread was strictly made as an argument on the advantages of the three types of mixers. It was created to get the conversation off 'Essential DJ equipment thread'. I'm not going to share a link on this thread but i made this mix using my VCI-300 and an Fx unit. There were about 2 1/2 EPs i used in the mix that i've only listened to each track once before. Thanks to being able to check the track waveform mixing in these unfamiliar songs was no trouble at all.

sorry if posting this is frowned upon for the sake of the conversation, i thought it was relevant. If anyone wishes this message to be removed, it will disappear faster than a fat person can eat a cupcake.

Some FX that makes mixing a whole lot smoother when using controllers are for example LP/HPF w/LFO, Phaser, Flangers, Adjustable rates and so on. There are definitely a ton more possibilities using software controllers. And i feel like straight computer DJ programs, as in Virtual DJ, shouldn't quite be included in the thread. I think we can all agree that programs like that shouldn't be used for anything except for people who tried Djing on a friends mixer and wanted to get a 'little' familiar before going out and purchasing equipment. And as for this auto beatmatching.. You have Jog Wheels for a reason.

[slothrop]

Well you clearly are not a DJ then are you because a lot of people I know (some of which aren't even DJ's) can tell when a DJ is mixing like a god or whatever. You will be surprised how many people (especially at a dubstep rave) go and appreciate the mixing. Maybe not if your a skrillex robo-mosher but a lot of the people who have been in the scene for a while take time to appreciate it.

I'm not a DJ, but I can tell when a DJ is mixing well and yeah, I do care. But if the mixes are in time (which as you say, is only the first step towards decent mixing anyway), I don't care whether it's being done automatically for them or whether they're doing it manually, because it sounds exactly the freaking same. I'm there to hear a great set (which is about a lot more skill and judgement than just competent beatmatching), not applaud a puppy that's learnt a clever trick.

To put my previous question again, if automatic beatmatching had always been standard and someone started doing it manually, would you think it really improved your night out or was just an irrelevant bit of gimmicky showing off?

[dublerium]

Ok here's what i've got to say on the technology side of things. Through getting into DJing i've actually gone in total reverse order of the advancements of technology, I went from MIDI controller to CDJ to Serato to Vinyl.

having owned a vci 100 I wanted something more physical and went for cdj, realising I could sell these and afford turntables I got myself an absoloute steal of getting two 1200s and £400 cash on top for the CDJ. My main intention was get serato and just keep buying vinyl too a minimum and just get the wax only releases I wanted, ofcourse the record buying didn't stop there. Whenever i'd have a mix i'd always go for my records just because they are more pleasurable to use and also they're the tunes I most want to mix with as they are the tunes that I will lay down a larger sum of my own money for them than I would have mp3.

Though having serato was a novelty I just thought it was too expensive to be sitting there when i'd rather spend the money on records which is exactly what I did. So having owned all of the formats stated in the OP and i'm unbiased as it's not like I was a vinyl purist and didn't want to change with the times; I just find vinyl the most pleasurable format to mix on by a country mile. A good blend between records is infinitely more gratifying to me than on CD's or midi. Though I will say with MIDI I was just emulating a cdj setup and not doing any of these ableton live sets which I think are really impressive if done right.

Not to shoot down the debate but it's obviously down to preference, it's good to hear peoples two cents but there's no point in battling it out as you like what you like.

[mikeyp]

let's not all forget the point of DJing in the first place, and that is to make people dance. when it comes down to it, if you're doing that, who gives a fuck how it's being done

[B-Frank]

Well you clearly are not a DJ then are you because a lot of people I know (some of which aren't even DJ's) can tell when a DJ is mixing like a god or whatever. You will be surprised how many people (especially at a dubstep rave) go and appreciate the mixing. Maybe not if your a skrillex robo-mosher but a lot of the people who have been in the scene for a while take time to appreciate it.

I'm not a DJ, but I can tell when a DJ is mixing well and yeah, I do care. But if the mixes are in time (which as you say, is only the first step towards decent mixing anyway), I don't care whether it's being done automatically for them or whether they're doing it manually, because it sounds exactly the freaking same. I'm there to hear a great set (which is about a lot more skill and judgement than just competent beatmatching), not applaud a puppy that's learnt a clever trick.

To put my previous question again, if automatic beatmatching had always been standard and someone started doing it manually, would you think it really improved your night out or was just an irrelevant bit of gimmicky showing off?

I'm going to put it bluntly but this outlines exactly how Dubstep has changed and in my opinion for the worse.



All for gash at a rave but you get me.

[B-Frank]

let's not all forget the point of DJing in the first place, and that is to make people dance. when it comes down to it, if you're doing that, who gives a fuck how it's being done

If people want a guy pressing buttons on a laptop they'd just ask for cheaper tickets and forget booking acts and stick a CD on.

[slothrop]

Erm yeah, because brostep would never have happened without controllers. Just like clownstep didn't happen when everyone played vinyl. Oh no wait it did.

let's not all forget the point of DJing in the first place, and that is to make people dance. when it comes down to it, if you're doing that, who gives a fuck how it's being done

If people want a guy pressing buttons on a laptop they'd just ask for cheaper tickets and forget booking acts and stick a CD on.

Yes or no question - do you genuinely think that a DJ who mixes using automatic beatmatching on a laptop is no different from putting a CD on?

[slothrop]

Does anyone ever think how funny this debate must look like to 'proper' musicians? Like wow, non-musicians who get paid to play other people's records arguing about what's an adequately skillful way to play other people's records and what's 'cheating'.

[mikeyp]

let's not all forget the point of DJing in the first place, and that is to make people dance. when it comes down to it, if you're doing that, who gives a fuck how it's being done

If people want a guy pressing buttons on a laptop they'd just ask for cheaper tickets and forget booking acts and stick a CD on.

even if that guy is just pressing buttons if he's playing good tunes on point and adapting to the crowd that's a hell of a lot better than a cd

[mikeyp]

Does anyone ever think how funny this debate must look like to 'proper' musicians? Like wow, non-musicians who get paid to play other people's records arguing about what's an adequately skillful way to play other people's records and what's 'cheating'.

lol never thought of it like that