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big lurch wrote:What's everyone's thoughts regarding this?

Turnipish Thoughts wrote:I think some of you are missing the point, or maybe I'm the one missing it. But this idea of "the laws of attraction" is nothing more than the "seek and ye shall find" nature of the human mind. There are some truths in NLP in respect to thinking positively will change your behaviour and put you in different situations than if you had thought more negatively about things. There's a direct causal relationship going on to do with real world interaction dynamics. There isn't some unseen psychic force coercing reality to your whim because you're focusing on certain things.

Ideas like that come from a belief in a certain system, we all have systems of belief (visa-vi understanding, they're one and the same.) (look at religion/science/psychology/maths/language e.t.c.), its an inescapable aspect of the human mind, every aspect of understanding/dealing with reality is essentially an abstract system of the mind (there is no spoon, no really, there actually isn't, but that's another story.) The point is, the human mind is completely conditioned to perceive things through the paradigm of specific systems, and once a certain system/belief is in place, the mind will colour perception along those lines. Which is why one person may have a religious experience, another person may seek medical help. Neither are 'true', but both 'real' as far as subjective reality is concerned. What's more influential is when people gather that believe in the same system because then the 'individual' is receiving feedback from the external world that's reinforcing that belief system, not simply from seeing 'coincidences' or other events that confer suspicion but actual human feedback which is much more intellectually potent and will do much more to reinforce this belief paradigm as being objective. When the 'truth' is in-fact, that it isn't. There comes a point where so much self conditioning and connecting of dots has happened that the person completely commits to that system because to them it 'makes sense', it must be true because it makes complete sense. But the point is, the mind has made it make sense, because in reality the world and every situation in it is a blank slate, it is the mind alone that colours it into a specific perspective, a perspective completely pre-determined by the belief structures we have in place, and are in turn re-enforced by the subconscious decision to perceive that situation in the way we chose to, its a complete psychological catch 22 and a very deep reaching and fundamental aspect of the mind.

I used to believe in a lot of far out things, at one point i thought i was a 'star child' that had come to help the earth evolve, i used to really look into metaphysics and all kinds of odd notions about the unseen sides of reality. I was much younger then though and have since spent a long time looking into and learning about the nature of the mechanism of belief within the human psyche from various philosophical and psychological perspectives and have since gained much more of a perspective on that entire arena, instead of simply running within it, on some level i feel like I was cheating myself, I feel quite ashamed that I had the ideas I did when I had them, it's a little shameful to become aware of how naive i was.

The point I'm making is that with things like "the laws of attraction" and "NLP" work entirely as a function of the mechanism of belief paradigms and should be understood as being just that. They have no actual hold or effect on objective reality in the physical world. Coincidences and apparent events that reinforce these things as being true are only seen because the mind perceiving them that way is conditioned to do so.

We live in a chaotic and emergent system where any series of random events can occur, like a number of glasses being placed on the table. That would have still happened regardless, except, Mortal, had you not been in the same frame of mind, you would not have noticed nor would it have been a 'significant coincidence' to you, it would have simply been an aspect of the background hum of experience we go through everyday. We find things to reinforce our beliefs because it consoles us as a reflection that we are in a common experience.

To quote:

...that really help to reinforce the idea of how much control you're in.

Which is essentially exactly what I'm talking about.

Its like with the idea of Karma. There is a common miss-conception that karma is some unseen universal force of morality, making sure people that do bad things get their just deserts. Which is a silly notion. Actual Buddhism understands the concept of Karma as the act of cause and effect within the universe. If you are a bad person, you will unavoidably find yourself in bad experiences because of the millions of dynamic effects your choices will make on how your social existence is evolving. Its a causal relationship within social dynamics again. Which is how everything on this level works.

So going back to NLP, it 'works' because its altering the way you interact with the world to being someone that's more pro-active. Directly effecting things on a social and personal dynamic level, any notions about tapping into some secret psychic energy and other people subconsciously tapping into that is ultimately unfounded conjecture and as stated simply a mechanism of the minds tenacity to develop abstract systems, of which, these notions are added 'fluff' and redundant tertiary glitter to make the whole thing seem a little bit more like a cool shared secret for 'those in the know', reinforcing the quazi validity of the belief, allaying any potential for anxiety that would be there if the person had any doubt in the notion he actually knew what was going on around him, you could call it a form of deep routed cognitive dissonance. We create our own versions of objectivity, which is impossible because we are bound to a finite locale and veiled by the mind. But we call it objective, decide on it and commit it to being so because we have nothing else, while needing for our own comfort to think we are objectively aware of our surroundings, understand the system that we perceive it as and in control of our interaction with it.

check out Taoism. That's about the only existential philosophy I agree with on any level. and Emanuel Kant is great reading material for things on the subject of belief and other mechanisms of human perception.

parson wrote:NLP works like yoga, or hermeticism, or psychedelic drugs in that it allows a programmer to program the mind and alter the entire personality

parson wrote:it's true that the human mind is geared towards finding what it's looking for. the trick is that the universe is actually rearranging to make this happen. i realize that is a huge leap for most people. hermeticism is based on the experimental method though. nobody says to believe anything. try the shit and see what happens. no faith, no religion, no belief. just experiments and results.

parson wrote:i'm just saying that you're missing out on a key function of the universe, which is to rearrange itself according to your thoughts.

reality is a projection much like OSX or Windows. you can literally reprogram the universe with your mind. the universe is malleable. the mind is the projector. access the mind and change reality.

Turnipish Thoughts wrote:

parson wrote:i'm just saying that you're missing out on a key function of the universe, which is to rearrange itself according to your thoughts.

reality is a projection much like OSX or Windows. you can literally reprogram the universe with your mind. the universe is malleable. the mind is the projector. access the mind and change reality.

See this is what I have a problem with. I would agree that 'reality is a projection' but you have to defined 'reality' because we might be talking about different things. In my opinion the only 'reality' you could ever experience is your own internal map, your own personal isolated subjective bubble. Restricted to and created entirely within the nature of how the abstractions of the human mind process the information we receive as finite locales of consciousness. Every one of the senses, time, space and the breaking down of experience into labels (spoon e.t.c.). We see not 'reality' but a projection of reality. Which yes, we can change, but by that we are not changing anything ultimate, we are simply altering an aspect of our own bubble.

I think that's an important distinction to understand. That firstly 'reality' as far as anyone could possibly comprehend is a creation of the mind experiencing it, that it is completely removed from any kind of objective 'true' reality, which we have no control over bar our actions and influences upon the external, that we can only ever experience through the veil of our own projections.

And secondly that any 'altering' of reality is only altering the type of 'reality' that we personally experience on an individual and completely isolated basis. That its silly to presume that you are literally effecting the formless absolute that transcends, surrounds and is the route of all our internal realities, because we have no direct connection to that anyway, it is the substance from which perception solidifies for the individual, to say we have any control over that is in my opinion confusing your projection/reflection/map for the true substance of existence, which it will never be for as long as you have a mind, a finite locale, an ego and identity and a system of 'mind/perspective' from within which you process experience. You cannot escape the mind and without it you cannot experience, but for there to be any truth in what you're saying we would have to exist within a direct connection with objectivity, which is impossible while needing the notion of a finite locale and all the systems 'of' the mind in order to experience existence, It's mutually exclusive, you cannot have both.

So the only thing you ever have control over is your map. Not the thing the map is representing. Without the map you have no foundation upon which to base experience let alone have any form of influence or control over something you have no capability of being aware of in the first place.

The funny thing about all this. Is that me and you debating this stuff is exactly what I was talking about in my original post. Non of this holds ultimate weight, because we are just stating our own personal truths. We are both bound by our own personal maps of reality and stuck very much in our own bubbles. So we protect and defend and describe what it is we hold so precious to ourselves. To call it the ultimate is dissolution, to see them as true only to ourselves is true, which is a self defeating sentence I know, but only if you fail to recognise that in saying that I am only speaking from my own subjectivity.

parson wrote: the menu is not the meal. i know korzybski.

but i also know hermes trismegistus. the universe is mind. all is waves, etc. reality is plural and malleable.

i know that by having magma blocked (altering the map) it doesn't alter the territory (magma still exists)

but i also know that by altering my perception of reality, i can alter what i attract and experience and thusly alter the entire universe, which is fractal by nature. an infinite net of gems, each one reflecting every other one.