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Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:11 pm
by daeMTHAFKNkim
OfficialDAPT wrote:I really like your advice, how long have you been producing? And where do u start as far as intro or "drop" in a song to get the ball rolling?
Get the melody done first. Then build an intro/drop after that. It's really important cuz the whole song will be based off of that melody/notes throughout the entire song. That's how I always work anyways

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:13 pm
by Turnipish_Thoughts
dude. You're in a situation every single musician finds themselves in on a very regular basis. So you have an idea that's working nicely but you're having big trouble figuring out how to flesh it out into a full track.

It's a skill that you have to develop just like every other aspect of making music. It's not something that you should just naturally be good at. Of course not, it's an aspect of composition that has a structure to it, a structure you have to spend time learning. There is an art in knowing enough about theory to be able to extent initial motifs out into evolved ideas and progressions which follows certain rules and guidelines.

Ask yourself wether your comfortable with these guidelines right now, do you know exactly what I'm talking about or do you just have a vague idea about the specifics of what I'm talking about? I presume from your post it's the latter. So this is what you have to teach yourself. It sounds really simple and you might think I'm even being a little condescending but you'd be amazed how many bedroom producers hit roadblocks simply because they aren't approaching learning music production from the right angle.

There's a big difference between sitting down as a musician and attempting to write a song; and sitting down as a student and teaching yourself the currently important elements of writing songs/producing music. A lot of your time has to be spent teaching yourself the art, rather than trying to apply what you know very little about in a creative manner. It's almost a science, in so much as it has a lot of specifics that when followed will allow the 'art' side of it to flourish.

If you're in the loop-mong rut, you need to learn about song structuring. This means not worrying about the greatness of the loops, but making something that will do and copying it out, and playing with motif variation, call and response, melodic development, the use of measures to indicate the beginning and ends of tune portions, e.t.c.

Actually take each concept and experiment with it, analytically de-construct what you're doing, wether it sounds good and why; without trying to turn it into a tune, which the perceived delicacy of the ''tune'' would otherwise restrict your confidence in experimenting laterally.

You are learning a craft, you have to understand this. You can't apply the craft until you have learned it well enough to do so, so you have to draw a distinction between creative application and self education. Take this approach and you'll see yourself get better and most importantly you won't get frustrated any more because you'll have understood your place in the scale of being a producer.

I hope you get what I mean. Peace.

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:37 pm
by Alistairr
in other words....

just keep practising man, "fleshing out an idea" is what its all about, if u have ideas that at least a start. now to fulfil ur vision, cause thats what "musicians" must have as a trait, it helps to have an in depth knowledge of music in general,so u no what structure u want to impose on ur idea etc etc.

keep the productions simplistic, its music made for dancing, not the latest orchestral suite in g fucking minor. dont panik for the love of god, but dont force a track either, itll just be slammed on soundcloud and fall flat on its face trust me.

to use that horrible dj word, everything must be "organic" from beginning to end.

hope this helps

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:42 pm
by Insahn
OfficialDAPT wrote:I really like your advice, how long have you been producing? And where do u start as far as intro or "drop" in a song to get the ball rolling?
Glad I could help. I've been making music for a long time (10+ years) but producing for only a short while (2 years with little to show for it). It's different as it doesn't flow like it would if you were just jamming out with a band on guitar or something so its taken me some time to adjust (still adjusting). I start with the "drop" and then try to build an intro based on components of that for now. It's pretty basic but you can always go in and beef it up. For other kinds of music I like to work from the intro, but starting with the busiest part of the song and working backwards is a good way to do things because you end up having more components to build the rest of your track with and you can do that with the busiest part of your song in mind. It's like a rock band that uses a 2nd chorus in their song. The second chorus is always heavier than the first, and the second verse is always a little busier than the first verse, etc in other words they are building up to it in an artful way.

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:42 pm
by dubfordessert
Insahn wrote:You have essentially uncockblocked your mind.
:cornlol:

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:09 am
by OfficialDAPT
All these answers are really helpful, although I'm not so sure if I understand you "Turnipish Thoughts." How do I develop the skill of making a song if I can't get past a certain point?

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:34 am
by JBE
You're not finishing tracks simply because you're just not ready to. You're at a point right now where you can probably make loops all day long and have them turn out relatively decent and interesting. It's a progression of learning and understanding.

One thing I started doing when I realized I was having this problem was listening to songs in the genre I was working on. If it was a trance type track I would jump on youtube or go into my music folders and just start looking for tracks that were in the same style of sound I wanted to achieve. I then listened to them, sometimes for a few days. I would try to focus a lot on the intros and how they used parts from the main part of the track to build into it, and the different effects they would use. Then, and I'm sure some people will think this is kinda cheap, but I would copy them. I would blatantly try to mimic intros and breakdowns I heard in those songs bar for bar using the elements I created for mine. Maybe not the most honorable thing to do, but it did help quite a bit. I've been doing this for a long time, and I'm still not even close to being very good at it. But over the last year or so, I think I've gotten a thousand times better, and the majority of that can be attributed to the fact that I copied people.

There are very few moments in producing where things sort of click for you. But the first time I actually felt like I finished a track, albeit not very good at all, there was sort of a moment of clarity in it. The finishing of that first track for whatever reason created a flow of ideas I never had before. Not so much ideas on how to make songs, but ideas on how to try and put things together.

You've only been doing this for a couple months, and it's going to be extremely frustrating. But I think knowing that's normal makes it a lot easier to deal with. I'm pretty sure everyone, or at least most producers were in your shoes at one point in time. They got through it. As long as you're willing to keep trying, you'll get through it as well.

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:49 am
by Mammoth
Insahn wrote:
OfficialDAPT wrote:Insahn: you just hit the nail on the head that's exactly what's happening. My question is how do you make the loop good without listening over and over?
Try to minimize the amount you have to listen to it. You might find yourself just listening to it for the sake of it. I have done this a lot and its a horribly bad habit because you start really getting into your loop, really getting overly excited about it without thinking about where it needs to go next. You start thinking its awesome before you've actually created anything. This is not what you want to do because it will ultimately reinforce loop monging. You want to listen ONLY as long as you need to to figure out what it is you want to do next with the loop. Don't listen to it more than twice, stop, and create. Some good advice from ill.gates, If the idea isn't working within 5-10 minutes drop it and move on so your creativity isn't bogged down.
What I do a lot is I make something that I like and then bouncing it straight to audio. (less CPU also)
This helps because when I like something I want it to just stick and have me keep it how it is. This is just my personal opinion though. I go with my gut

Work on other parts too. I used to make 8 bar drum loops and just loop that section to the point to where it gets annoying to listen to also... Such a bitch

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:03 am
by Occupied Error
jst keep at it its all good practise man and your still learning jst boy it off if you dnt no where to go next iv literally don this to thousands of tracks over the years, and iv still got the projects so i go back listen to dem occasionally with new knowledge, i still find it hard but if your new to this shit then jst keep it simple rome wernt built in a day lol

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:49 am
by Immerse
dubfordessert wrote: 3. one problem i have producing is that i forget how repetitive music is, and so i think i need to shake it up a lot more often and in a bigger way than i actually need to to keep things interesting. so i "spend" too many ideas in too short a space of time, and my track ends up a minute long. variation does not need to be huge.
thisthisthisthisthis. its surprising how too much variation can slaughter vibes in a track. i accidentally do this all the time, once you find the sweet spot to change things up making vibe-able tracks gets alot easier, and quicker ;). good tip man

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:23 am
by OfficialDAPT
Thanks for all the help im going to try some of this out!

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:14 am
by fuzz0r
D. Ramirez shares a nice idea which relates to this in his masterclass. He suggests using a ghost track, which basically means loading up a track that you know works well arrangement-wise, and use it as visual guide. You just leave it on a muted channel, and then you can see visually on the waveform where the different parts should be, for example the drop, build-up, quiet part and so on.
For me the easiest thing to do is to first create a few bars loop of the main part of your track. When you like what you've got, you start working backwards and fill the track up according to the visual guide you have. You take different parts out, maybe simplify the drums and bass, use automations, whatever works. After you've got a basic intro you can add some fx to make the transition smoother between the different parts . Then you just do the same for the rest of the track, even duplicate what you have and mix it up. Should be a smooth sail from there.

Another thing I can suggest, which is basically the opposite of what has been said before me, is to just get the track done. When you have an idea, work on that track solely and keep with it until you finish it. This is where the visual guide really helps, even if you're out of ideas,you can get it done just by following the layout. It's really hard to finish a track if you keep bouncing between different ideas and different tracks. I believe a good track should have only a few musical ideas, just roll with your initial "spark" and continue with that feeling, even if it's just removing part or using a different instruments to play the same notes. If you try to cram too many ideas the track (or song) will just get lost. Making a habit of finishing tracks, even if you feel that they aren't good, will help you with arrangements of future tracks.

Last thing I can suggest is to find somebody to work with. It forces you to work for long periods, and you can complete and motivate each other when you're stuck.

This is probably the biggest issue all musician face, but I believe it basically comes down to hard work.
Good luck. :)

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:49 am
by dj nation
fuzz0r wrote: Another thing I can suggest, which is basically the opposite of what has been said before me, is to just get the track done. When you have an idea, work on that track solely and keep with it until you finish it. This is where the visual guide really helps, even if you're out of ideas,you can get it done just by following the layout. It's really hard to finish a track if you keep bouncing between different ideas and different tracks. I believe a good track should have only a few musical ideas, just roll with your initial "spark" and continue with that feeling, even if it's just removing part or using a different instruments to play the same notes. If you try to cram too many ideas the track (or song) will just get lost. Making a habit of finishing tracks, even if you feel that they aren't good, will help you with arrangements of future tracks.
this is what i really agree with, i used to bounce back n forth between loads of different half arsed projects and not really get anywhere with all of em. by the end of it i just ended up listening to all the different loops and just not doing anything with it and listen to the next one hehe.

to be fair this was when i was just having a really unispirational time of productions, but nowadays i do pretty much what fuzz0r said which is to just push through. literally force yourself to finish the track. I know force is kinda a strong word, especially when ppl always say just do what feels natural and all that. But if you force yourself to finish a tune, say 1 tune a week deadline then your practising your skills of getting out off the loop.

even if the tracks not that good just move on with your productions. in the long run you'll get better. :W:

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:41 pm
by kambian
Insahn wrote:
OfficialDAPT wrote:Insahn: you just hit the nail on the head that's exactly what's happening. My question is how do you make the loop good without listening over and over?
Try to minimize the amount you have to listen to it. You might find yourself just listening to it for the sake of it. I have done this a lot and its a horribly bad habit because you start really getting into your loop, really getting overly excited about it without thinking about where it needs to go next. You start thinking its awesome before you've actually created anything. This is not what you want to do because it will ultimately reinforce loop monging.
I have this habit. I blame the weed.

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:38 pm
by OfficialDAPT
Ha Yeah I try not to have arrangement ADD but It always happens.When I get frustrated I open up facebook and waste my time until there isn't any left :(

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:04 pm
by Hakala
This happened to me about 10 minutes ago, so I looked up some unfinished stuff until I found a project that I liked. You should really try it out!

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:37 am
by Turnipish_Thoughts
What I was trying to say is that learning to build a whole track has it's own structure just like learning the structure of sound design, it's constituent parts. Learning about oscillators and filters, the frequency spectrum and the innards of a synth. Before you have learned about the internal specifics of sound design, you're going to be floundering about with a synth just hoping to come across something good. Once you have studied the structure of sound design though, you have a map to orient yourself towards a given aim.

This is the same with every aspect with learning music production, or anything for that matter. The answer is kind of in your question. You can't get past a certain point until you have developed the skill. You develop the skill by studying it's structure. In song structure, this entails listening to songs and really paying attention to how they develop, take note of the motifs and how they evolve over the song, pay attention to each measure and how they flow into each other. What syncopation has the producer used to signify the beginning of a new phase? What constitutes the different parts of a track and how do they differ from each other? Break it down and analyse the nature of a track's structure.

You need to develop a 'map' of how a song structure is created so you know what you're doing, otherwise you'll be shooting in the dark. So you need to look at how song structures work from within your genre. We are all culturally bound to expect certain elements from a tune so use these resources available to you is what I'm saying. i.e. stop trying to 'make tunes', and start teaching yourself the science behind structuring tunes. This will develop those skills, and get you past the point you're stuck, because the roadblock you've hit literally is a lack of understanding this structure, so learn it, teach yourself it, do what you must to understand it before you try to apply it.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about, this is something I wrote for someone asking about melody. Note the structured approach taken to melody, how it is based around certain benchmarks of melodic theory, and how I was able to, by knowing such, create a motif and develop it around strong means. The same basic theory can be applied to any other aspect of production. Knowing the nature of what it is you're trying to do. Which means teaching yourself.

As I said before, there's is a difference between trying to make a tune and 'teaching yourself' the science behind it. Just like how you would be taught something in education is different from applying that knowledge in a productive environment.

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:46 am
by narcissus
dude, idk. yesterday i made a 7 minute uplifting trance tune, i literally couldn't STOP til it was finished

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:11 am
by OfficialDAPT
But isn't the best way to get good at anything just trying it until you succeed and then look back and ask yourself how you did it?

Re: Why can't I finish tunes?

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:06 am
by VirtualMark
The other day, i made the electro tune in my sig in ONE fucking day. Start to finish, doing sound design as i went. Took about 10-12 hours, i didn't keep track of time just carried on until i'd finished.

The other one, still WIP, took days and days of messing round. I'm sick to death of it, can't get the basses right. Started out with a nice idea, got bogged down in polishing stuff, think i actually made a few things worse!

Watch the ill gates seminar someone posted, a few things really rang home for me. He said to have tune writing days, and other days where you do your sound design, read synth manuals, watch youtube tutorials etc. Only have a writing day when you have the time! I'm going to try this method, i need to find a way to get in the zone. I have a ton of wip's, and truth is i can't be assed to go back to most of them. I feel like i'm trying to jam a square plug into a round hole with some of them - the ideas aren't that great and its hard to accept when i've spent hours on them.

From now on i am going to work on arrangement as my priority when writing music. If it does take more than one day, i'll get the mixdown sorted the next day. Just want to make sure its all arranged and that part is finished. Eq'ing and other stuff can take second place.