Confused by Israel Situation

[mIrReN]

also large part of the discussion

water!

[dubfordessert]

reversal of illegal settlements/land grabs

To what extent? I always get a bit mixed up with who took what or who gave up what around Israel and the middle east, but going back some years now, and like I say, many people have been born and grew up Israeli in those areas. Is forcibly moving people that had absolutely no say in the formation of those areas on a sound thing to do?

CONFUSION.

that's how those areas became israeli in the first place. unfortunately if you colonise an area, when you decolonise it, you have to leave. a land return would have to be negotiated but netanyahu/likud are recalcitrant to say the least and have rejected, say, a return to 1967 borders. meanwhile they consider further/accelerated land grabs as retaliation to palestine's quest for statehood http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/no ... s-abbas-un

no one likes hamas, but with right wingers like likud in power in israel there will never be a settlement.

[garethom]

If I was your standard Israeli, I'd be paranoid as fuck all the time.

[noam]

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/14/ ... za_and_the

[dubfordessert]

welp nvm

[Laszlo]

I just can't work out an outcome that wouldn't see tonnes of people being displaced/getting killed.

I've been following this situation ever since I started getting interested in world affairs (around the time The Fresh Prince of Bel Air got cancelled from BBC2) and i've come to the same conclusion.
I don't agree with the aggression from either side but when the Palestinian 'missiles' are essentially large fireworks and the IDF have F-16s to retaliate with I can't help side with the underdog.
The use of phosphorus bombs on civilians is also a massive par. Yes, I understand that legitimate targets 'hide' within civilian areas but c'mon, it's a bit like Tyson using brass knuckles to weigh in Prince Naseem.
I am not anti-Israel.
I am not anti-semitic.
I am anti-bully (even if the bullied is a bit of a twat).

Honestly, (I know this isn't a very constructive answer but this is just the hideout and not a UN meeting) the best I can come up with is a dirty bomb on temple mount WITH a warning. Minimises casualties and makes sure nobody can go there/argue over it.


(If any of the language I have used seems flippant or disrespectful then i'm sorry, that was not my intention.
I hold reverence for life above all else. I don't want to see death on either side.)



Also, in b4 pkay!

[garethom]

I just can't work out an outcome that wouldn't see tonnes of people being displaced/getting killed.

I've been following this situation ever since I started getting interested in world affairs (around the time The Fresh Prince of Bel Air got cancelled from BBC2) and i've come to the same conclusion.
I don't agree with the aggression from either side but when the Palestinian 'missiles' are essentially large fireworks and the IDF have F-16s to retaliate with I can't help side with the underdog.
The use of phosphorus bombs on civilians is also a massive par. Yes, I understand that legitimate targets 'hide' within civilian areas but c'mon, it's a bit like Tyson using brass knuckles to weigh in Prince Naseem.
I am not anti-Israel.
I am not anti-semitic.
I am anti-bully (even if the bullied is a bit of a twat).

Honestly, (I know this isn't a very constructive answer but this is just the hideout and not a UN meeting) the best I can come up with is a dirty bomb on temple mount WITH a warning. Minimises casualties and makes sure nobody can go there/argue over it.


(If any of the language I have used seems flippant or disrespectful then i'm sorry, that was not my intention.
I hold reverence for life above all else. I don't want to see death on either side.)



Also, in b4 pkay!

Yeah, Israel always do seem to "over-react", and that's only gonna make things worse, but I can't help but think that if Hamas had access to F-16's, they'd defo be using them. Their massively lop-sided retaliations are probably meant as a deterrent like "Seriously, don't ever fucking do that again", but it just fuels more hatred and determination.

[noam]

Israel land grabs, its slowly been herding palestinians into smaller and more rigidly controlled borders to take more control of more land

its really very simple from Israel's point of view - 'we dont like you, we dont want you, but we cant kill you'

so they subjugate beyond enslavement

the problem for Palestinians is that for the most part they're just forced into siding with Hamas who are violently opposed to Israel even being there and their solution is military attacks

Genevieve pretty much smacked it right on the head

Chomsky does alrite too

[butter_man]

It happens all the time throughout the ages. Big fish eat little fish. If ur palestinian my condolences if not what is talking, caring going do except appease ur 'socially' minded conscience (no shots fired just general). 'thank fuck its not us' is probably the realest any of us can say.

[dubfordessert]

if no one had an opinion on anything that didn't directly concern their ethnic group not a great deal would progress in history. quietism is great if that's your preference but don't expect it of anyone else

[volcanogeorge]

does anyone have a link to a decent explanation of the conflict as a whole? i don't know enough about it and every time i try and research it it confuses the shit out of me

[butter_man]

So this thread has influence over the situation. Most talk on the subject is just hot air. Voicing ur opinion when it matters and knowing when it matters isnt quietism, its recognising futility, not that thats me cos bringing this to attention is equally as futile.

[dubfordessert]

http://jakke.tumblr.com/post/3578671759 ... n-and-gaza interesting post that just came up on my tumblr about domestic israeli politics

[Sexual_Chocolate]

colonial powers have only themselves to blame for this.

[Sonika]

Both way too trigger happy IMO

And both sides have been wronged in many ways and have a lot of things to be pissed about

[dubfordessert]

So this thread has influence over the situation. Most talk on the subject is just hot air. Voicing ur opinion when it matters and knowing when it matters isnt quietism, its recognising futility, not that thats me cos bringing this to attention is equally as futile.

if you don't want to be part of a futile conversation then no one is forcing you.

the idea that discussing something you have no power to directly affect is futile is false, though. your thoughts affect the perspectives and thoughts of others. shit is connected.

if humans never spoke about anything that didn't directly affect them the world would be a quieter and shittier place imo

[pkay]

israel is not going to stop hamas rockets or a militant response to its oppression of palestinians by oppressing them more.

ceasefire. stop and reversal of illegal settlements/land grabs and evictions of palestinians, economic blockades and movement restrictions

very least it needs to do. it should also allow the recognition of palestine as an observing non-member state by the UN without retaliation because FFS israel it won't hurt. it won't though.

what can other countries do? nothing, because the united states unconditionally supports israel. even if the entire rest of the world voted for sanctions against israel it would have no effect.

You do realize the country you live in imposes economic blockades and movement restrictions on countries it does not approve of too right? Israel is using the methods the world has deemed acceptable.... the difference is those people live withing their country instead of halfway across the world from them (reminding you palestine is not a country it is a geographical term and that Palestine is in an area of Israel)

[dubfordessert]

You do realize the country you live in imposes economic blockades and movement restrictions on countries it does not approve of too right?

really? i had no idea. you've caught me in my outrageous british imperialist hypocrisy, lmao

Israel is using the methods the world has deemed acceptable....

that is complete and total bollocks, israel is using methods the world has deemed illegal multiple times

(reminding you palestine is not a country it is a geographical term and that Palestine is in an area of Israel)

both semantically trivial and exactly the area of dispute

[mIrReN]

oh just wondering, why is it that Palestine is not a country?
Howcome Palestine is an area in Isreal?

[dubfordessert]

seriously pkay if you're gonna start a response with "the country you live in does it too!" why even bother? D-, must try harder. laters bro.