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No need to get silly....

Simulant wrote:Lastly, stands don't cost that much, using and recommending dustbins gives the impression that you work at a rubbish dump. But if that's the professional image you want to project, who am I to argue.

Sure, stands don't cost that much - but that doesn't mean they are always a necessary cost - nor was I recommending using dustbins. I simply said that it was what I use because I hadn't found anything that could handle the size of my speakers that would be worth the cost. Second of all - I never said that I was running a recording studio for hire (ie - one where clients are coming in and judging image). The professional work I do is hired purely on the sonic results - which have never been in question.

Simulant wrote:And a hollow metal can, such as a dustbin, probably has an audible resonance and could add a hollow sound of its own. And you can't adjust dustbins either, you can adjust the angles of the base on most stands. Lastly, they're on a desk and close to a wall which is far from ideal!

You could potentially be right - but I don't use hollow metal can, nor hollow can of any sort. They are mesh which doesn't allow for resonation in the way you are trying to imply. And yes, they are on a desk and close to a wall - you don't need to try to act informed in front of me, I know all about bass doubling ratios... but what you don't know, is the shape, dimensions, reflectiveness or any other aspect of my room. You are trying to act smart by making a snap judgement by reading a couple articles on Sound on Sound and seeing a single sliver picture. You could see a panorama of my studio and you still wouldn't know what I know.

Simulant wrote:

Mad EP wrote:Sure - Auralex pads are great, but they aren't stands... and in fact, if anything - many specific stands prohibit the use of absorbent pads, which is much more important in my opinion.

Yeah, I guess these scientists and engineers who design stands know less about room acoustics than us musicians eh?

Well, yes and no. First of all... if you think that all of these "pro" audio pieces of kit are as scientifically proven as they claim, well... I have a bridge to sell you. Second of all, I am not just some random naive musician... I went to one of the best sound recording schools in North America. I have studied Acoustics, Psychoacoustics, Physics, Psychophysics, Electronics, Digital Audio, etc etc at an extremely high level. You may or may not want to believe that - but I can tell you that at the very least, we learned enough to distance ourselves from so-called "Hi-Res Charlatanism". IE- all these fools who think they need to have (and are willing to outrageously pay for) gold-plated everything. Gold-plating does NOTHING to help improve the sound or retain fidelity or anything else. I can also say - we didn't have any 'store-bought' monitor stands either.

Simulant wrote:

Mad EP wrote:My current setup definitely has some DIY-grit to it.. but at the end of the day, it works beautifully. I have no rattle or resonance, because of the type of bin I chose and the absorbent pads I used. The most important gear a producer/engineer can have is their ears... and mine are very critical. If there had been anything sonically wrong with the way I mounted my speakers, I would have changed it ages ago.

Ah, another person who thinks their ears can beat science. Like it or not, you have a shitty setup. I know people who would laugh their ass off at that photo. Please stop recommending dustbins to people.

Again - you can diss my setup if you like... but you can't diss my ears, because whether you like it or not, I am not some random kid thinking I can beat the system by being punk. My ears ARE better than most people's ears... including many established engineers & producers. You don't have to believe it - it has already been proven time & time again. I was the youngest producer of the Chicago Symphony in their entire history... I was telling some of the best musicians that have ever lived and a Grammy-winning engineer what to do to make the recording better... and they followed because at age 21 I already had that type of credibility. I don't ignore science and I too know people who would laugh at the photo... the difference is... those same people would shut up once they heard the final mixes.

I am not recommending dustbins fullstop. I am saying sometimes, for oddly sized speakers/monitors... odd solutions need to be applied. Also - if one has good enough ears, sometimes alternate solutions can be applied. I remember playing some tracks for the same Grammy-winning engineer... and he asked what I monitored on and I showed him my (at the time) $20 headphones. He threw a fit, cos he admitted he couldn't have done a better job with his $30,000 electrostatics. Technology & science is great - but they will NEVER replace a good ear.

Guise. We just make music. Noone cares. So stop caring as well.

Mad EP wrote:You could potentially be right - but I don't use hollow metal can, nor hollow can of any sort. They are mesh which doesn't allow for resonation in the way you are trying to imply.

Mesh still has a resonant frequency, just like all materials.

Mad EP wrote:And yes, they are on a desk and close to a wall - you don't need to try to act informed in front of me, I know all about bass doubling ratios... but what you don't know, is the shape, dimensions, reflectiveness or any other aspect of my room. You are trying to act smart by making a snap judgement by reading a couple articles on Sound on Sound and seeing a single sliver picture. You could see a panorama of my studio and you still wouldn't know what I know.

Regardless of the size of your room, that position isn't ideal. And I'm not "acting informed", I too have years of experience and study, so please stop making idiotic and assumptive statements. I posted the link to SoundonSound as you didn't seem to have a clue about basic acoustics.

Mad EP wrote:IE- all these fools who think they need to have (and are willing to outrageously pay for) gold-plated everything. Gold-plating does NOTHING to help improve the sound or retain fidelity or anything else.

I agree that in the hi-fi world people try to sell you crap that you don't need. Speaker stands do not fall into that category though. You claimed that speaker stands have no acoustic benefit, which just isn't true.

Mad EP wrote:I am not recommending dustbins fullstop. I am saying sometimes, for oddly sized speakers/monitors... odd solutions need to be applied. Also - if one has good enough ears, sometimes alternate solutions can be applied. I remember playing some tracks for the same Grammy-winning engineer... and he asked what I monitored on and I showed him my (at the time) $20 headphones. He threw a fit, cos he admitted he couldn't have done a better job with his $30,000 electrostatics. Technology & science is great - but they will NEVER replace a good ear.

Cool, well done. But this is a thread about speaker stands, not about how you personally have managed to get a good mix out of sub-par equipment. So stop acting like you're something special - I hate to break it to you, but I've never even heard of you! I'm sure that most Grammy award winning engineers manage to get good mixes without going to you and your dustbins for advice.

I too could tell you of my achievements, but I prefer to stick to facts and keep it objective instead of taking things personally.

I understand where you are coming from Gregory... but personally, I invite the debate because exchanging ideas is always good.


There is too much taken at face value and I think that it is important to search deeper. Especially in a scene where people are looking for EXACT answers, when in fact no exact answers exist.

How many times have we had threads asking for the best headphones for £150-200? And each time it comes up, there NEVER is a consensus. And for good reason!! There simply is NOT a singular perfect headphone or microphone or field recorder or sound card, etc etc etc.. there are ALWAYS pluses & minuses.

But at the root of it all - too may people trust graphs without actually LISTENING! Also - too many people trust their ears without TRAINING them! One has to train their brain to interpret graphs and filter through various scientific & 'scientific' research the same way one has to train their ear to REALLY be critical and hear things most ears cannot.


The best way to get through all the muck is to talk about it and debate it. Not just quote an online article someone read that one time.. but explore what it actually had to say. Did the person quoting it actually try to recreate the experiment and find the same results? THAT is being scientific....

Simulant -

I only posted my achievements because you treated me like an uniformed twat without knowing the SLIGHTEST about who i am and what i do.

If you had treated me with even the slightest amount of respect, I would have done the same. It is true I made assumptions - but mine were based more on fact than yours... you made assumptions based on a tiny sliver of a pic. I made assumptions based on how you tried to be sanctimonious about that pic.

Too many tl;drs in this thread.

Mad EP wrote:Simulant -

I only posted my achievements because you treated me like an uniformed twat without knowing the SLIGHTEST about who i am and what i do.

If you had treated me with even the slightest amount of respect, I would have done the same. It is true I made assumptions - but mine were based more on fact than yours... you made assumptions based on a tiny sliver of a pic. I made assumptions based on how you tried to be sanctimonious about that pic.

Actually I only posted as someone wrote "YES" underneath your pic, like it's a correct way to do things. It isn't, and I wanted to point that out. It's very easy to spread misinformation about the web.

From your pic, I can see several things wrong. Personally if that was my setup, I wouldn't brag about it.

And when people start posting their achievements in a forum discussion, it tells me a few things - they have a weak argument and want to try to boost it by acting like they know something I don't, and that they're insecure and need to boast.

You may well be blessed with golden ears, but most people aren't. And these people will benefit from doing the basic things correctly, such as learning correct speaker positioning and using proper stands.

Simulant wrote:

Mad EP wrote:Simulant -

I only posted my achievements because you treated me like an uniformed twat without knowing the SLIGHTEST about who i am and what i do.

If you had treated me with even the slightest amount of respect, I would have done the same. It is true I made assumptions - but mine were based more on fact than yours... you made assumptions based on a tiny sliver of a pic. I made assumptions based on how you tried to be sanctimonious about that pic.

Actually I only posted as someone wrote "YES" underneath your pic, like it's a correct way to do things. It isn't, and I wanted to point that out. It's very easy to spread misinformation about the web.

From your pic, I can see several things wrong. Personally if that was my setup, I wouldn't brag about it.

And when people start posting their achievements in a forum discussion, it tells me a few things - they have a weak argument and want to try to boost it by acting like they know something I don't, and that they're insecure and need to boast.

You may well be blessed with golden ears, but most people aren't. And these people will benefit from doing the basic things correctly, such as learning correct speaker positioning and using proper stands.

I imagine a big sloppy kiss & make up session soon... but until then, let's just stick to facts. I didn't BRAG... i simply posted what I do & use because my speakers aren't really shaped for "proper" speaker stands (nor have any of the top shelf recording studios I have worked in used them... so there is that as well). I also posted that speaker stands aren't as scientific as they would like to claim. You yourself admitted that EVERYTHING resonates (which I also believe) - so show me the scientific proof that a thinly meshed trapezoid resonates more than ANY commercially available speaker stand. That is where good ears come in - because as I previously stated - I haven't found any stands that would properly support my speakers that were acoustically worth the price. Show me the stats and I will gladly recant. Because I DO have good ears, and for my room and my speakers - I haven't found anything better.

jaydot wrote:Too many tl;drs in this thread.

For once I agree with you.

Mad EP wrote:I imagine a big sloppy kiss & make up session soon... but until then, let's just stick to facts. I didn't BRAG... i simply posted what I do & use because my speakers aren't really shaped for "proper" speaker stands (nor have any of the top shelf recording studios I have worked in used them... so there is that as well). I also posted that speaker stands aren't as scientific as they would like to claim. You yourself admitted that EVERYTHING resonates (which I also believe) - so show me the scientific proof that a thinly meshed trapezoid resonates more than ANY commercially available speaker stand. That is where good ears come in - because as I previously stated - I haven't found any stands that would properly support my speakers that were acoustically worth the price. Show me the stats and I will gladly recant. Because I DO have good ears, and for my room and my speakers - I haven't found anything better.

Now you're just being stupid - where on earth do you suggest that I find "stats" on dustbin resonant frequencies? Speaker stands, like speakers and other things these days are probably designed on some form of CAD software. I can tell you however, that it's good to have heavier stands as they help stop the speakers from moving. The woofer can shake the whole speaker and distort the treble a significant amount.

Like I said, your setup looks terrible - the speakers are in a corner, which is a big no. They are close to the walls, which is a no, and the ceiling behind them seems to slope towards you, which is also bad. I also don't see any treatment whatsoever. It looks like one big resonant mess, yet you claim that it sounds great. This makes me doubt anything that you say, sorry but you really don't have any credibility with me.

And are the speakers even active nearfield monitors? I might be wrong, but they look like normal hifi speakers.

I've got isoacoustic's stands and they are incredible! They work great with my Equator Audio D5.. I can't believe how different my setup sounds now...

Iso Acoustics FTW, even on top of speaker stands, they make a fantastic improvement, especially to the sub notes.