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LACE wrote:

I get your angle. Some women may end up in porn because of their sexual appetites, positive self-image and other completely healthy reasons, but also some may end up there out of deperation and lack of better options. Felicity wasn't very keen though. In the United States, I knew a few girls in the industry who were doing great for themselves, and I failed to see so much of the victimized stereotype- not to say that they don't exist, but I use their experiences as my frame of reference. I do think something needs to change about the business. Perhaps if the stigma placed on porn performers and sex can evolve, then maybe we can create a safer, more respectable industry.

That is the goal, although I can't really see the industry changing anytime soon!

LACE wrote:I'm with you up until this point.

Pistonsbeneath wrote: i believe many women are hardwired to enjoy being dominated not just in a sexual sense but in life by a man..this doesnt make them weak and it isnt wrong...its just a preference

Women aren't hardwired to enjoy domination, they're conditioned to, though complex sexuality would certainly include those who enjoy it, and those who don't.

I definitely agree with this. And to be perfectly honest, very few of the women I've known would particularly allow or enjoy being dominated by men. There's compromise, and then there's submission/domination. I'd put my mother in the submissive category, and my sister into the "occasionally willing to compromise" category. There's definitely a society shift and generational factor there, although I'd have to say that my aunts all tend to be quite dominating towards their husbands lol. I could probably put at most 2-3 women that I know well who'd fit into the submissive category. Maybe I've just grown up in the company of odd women and don't generally find submissive women to be interesting enough to get to know them.

On the other hand, since I'm still single, perhaps I'm doing something wrong...

LACE wrote:I'm with you up until this point.

Pistonsbeneath wrote: i believe many women are hardwired to enjoy being dominated not just in a sexual sense but in life by a man..this doesnt make them weak and it isnt wrong...its just a preference

Women aren't hardwired to enjoy domination, they're conditioned to, though complex sexuality would certainly include those who enjoy it, and those who don't.

But anyways, not all women in porn are battered and abused of course. Belladonna, for example, is a huge star, and she enjoys expressing her sexuality on camera and working in the porn industry (though she actually doesn't perform with others, she just directs now.) Tera Patrick runs her own company, Jenna Haze and Sasha Grey can also be included in that as well and even more who I won't bother to name. The majority of the porn consumers I know of are more interested in seeing women who enjoy themselves, and enjoy being on camera, then women who seem pressured into it or uncomfortable. Just depends.

i suppose if you look deeper thats true but to me hardwiring is relative to evolution

the fact is submission can be alligned with sticking to the hurd

as in allowing choices to be made for you and women do through evolution omit many examples of not wishing to break from the pack...to me that means sacrificing choices and that equals submission

there are many examples within nature of this and while there are exceptions for me and this might seem sexist greater degrees of conformity omitted by women than men but as i said...there are always exceptions

i have female friends that have admitted to me all they want sometimes is a simple life where they don't have to make choices..

and on porn i have to admit i know very little about it....of course i have used it like everyone on the planet with access to the internet but very very little and i suppose for me the lack of interest is the lack of reality and believability

if someone enjoys sex and gets paid for it thats amazing for them but i would say annd this might seem conservative...i find it hard to believe there isn't something damaged about women that get into it be it due to abuse at a younger age or just rampant insecurity and a need of attention and going to any length to get it..

i do feel sorry for people on some level as sex is meant to be something different than something to be there for strangers to masturbate to...it seems almost as if some are so damaged they cant examine their needs as its too painful and instead damage themselves further by trying to convince themselves they dont need love and that sex isnt a need of theirs, not a hunger that needs filling on a spiritual level and instead theyre happy to just let anyone share it with them

men are as equally conditioned as women to conformity and submission

noam wrote:men are as equally conditioned as women to conformity and submission

ok noam i realise this is a popular view but can you explain why mate?

as if you look back on our history that doesnt appear to be the case from where im standing

or are you saying theyre conditioned the same but end up conforming more?

you rather than responding to my points just made a blanket statement and it might make me look like a tnuc when im not and dont regard women as anything but equal

EDIT that might have sounded harsh..it wasnt meant to be

Pistonsbeneath wrote:

noam wrote:men are as equally conditioned as women to conformity and submission

ok noam i realise this is a popular view but can you explain why mate?

as if you look back on our history that doesnt appear to be the case from where im standing

or are you saying theyre conditioned the same but end up conforming more?

you rather than responding to my points just made a blanket statement and it might make me look like a tnuc when im not and dont regard women as anything but equal

EDIT that might have sounded harsh..it wasnt meant to be

it just meant you seem to have singled out women as having these 'weak-willed' attributes

men display the same attributes amongst their peer groups, it just so happens men and women dont necessarily always socialise as a collective so you dont see how some women are just as dominant and some men are just as submissive

also, being a male can mean you simply overlook the dynamic of female interaction between each other, where you'll see clear patterns of dominance and obedience

herd mentality is a pattern of behaviour of people in general, its unfair and untrue to single this particular trait out as being specifically one which is more prevalent in women than men

if you mean that in the confines of 4 walls, men can dominate women simply by being physically stronger its a one dimensional view of a 'power struggle'

women can just as easily 'control' men with intelligence, or sex, or a mixture of the both (to use classic examples that we can all relate to or must have at least picked up on); just as men can do the same to women.

tldr: patterns of human behaviour are relational to the entire spectrum of humanity as opposed to single gender groups

few are powerful, many are submissive.

mistaking archetypal views of gender roles is to mistake the reality of the human condition.

end of the day al im saying is women through history have shown a greater willingness to not break from the pack, i know a lot more men personally as well willing to go it alone and not need anyone (im a bit like that) but there are always exceptions

If anything maybe women overcompensate at times partially to make up for their female counterparts or maybe as theyre frustrated and dont want to be reliant and needing of others

i see it as all related...come to think of it when you think about it sex for a woman by its nature is more submissive than it is for a man

they allow themselves to be taken and to be invaded if you will submissively

the man is committing an aggressive act by comparison

Pistonsbeneath wrote:end of the day al im saying is women through history have shown a greater willingness to not break from the pack, i know a lot more men personally as well willing to go it alone and not need anyone (im a bit like that) but there are always exceptions

If anything maybe women overcompensate at times partially to make up for their female counterparts or maybe as theyre frustrated and dont want to be reliant and needing of others

i see it as all related...come to think of it when you think about it sex for a woman by its nature is more submissive than it is for a man

they allow themselves to be taken and to be invaded if you will submissively

the man is committing an aggressive act by comparison

noam wrote:mistaking archetypal views of gender roles is to mistake the reality of the human condition.

im not trying to say everything is done equally between men and women

im saying that quantifying something like the prevalence of a submissive mentality between genders - in such a generalised way - is ignorant of the full extent of these character traits in both genders

the historical view attributes these same qualities to todays women, who are in many, many ways, very, very different from women in the past

women not being allowed to vote doesn't equate to women willingly submitting to male power figures; prisoners were and are unable to vote, so were people of different races, are you going to tell me that Black immigrants show submissive character because they conformed with an institutions decision to deny them a vote?

something like submission/dominance/power isn't relative specifically to gender, its a mistake to attribute it to this just as its a mistake to attribute it to race (as in the above example)

you DONT see the whole thing as whole, thats the problem with the example

noam wrote:
the historical view attributes these same qualities to todays women, who are in many, many ways, very, very different from women in the past

women not being allowed to vote doesn't equate to women willingly submitting to male power figures; prisoners were and are unable to vote, so were people of different races, are you going to tell me that Black immigrants show submissive character because they conformed with an institutions decision to deny them a vote?

something like submission/dominance/power isn't relative specifically to gender, its a mistake to attribute it to this just as its a mistake to attribute it to race (as in the above example)

you DONT see the whole thing as whole, thats the problem with the example

This.

Pistonsbeneath wrote:

i suppose if you look deeper thats true but to me hardwiring is relative to evolution

the fact is submission can be alligned with sticking to the hurd

as in allowing choices to be made for you and women do through evolution omit many examples of not wishing to break from the pack...to me that means sacrificing choices and that equals submission

This, I'm sorry, is utter nonsense. You cannot justify this "naturally submissive women and naturally dominant men" by appealing to evolution. If you had any real understanding of evolution you would know that human behavior is formed by the environment much more than by genes, almost to point of making the genes irrelevant. There is no gene for "submissive females" and "dominant males", it is not as simple as that. To say that women being submissive is natural and that they are "hardwired" to be submissive is to say that they will display that behavior whatever the circumstance (they don't need to learn it). But as Noam has pointed out, women (or any other discriminated group) have only been "submissive" in situations where that behavior was enforced. As societies change and allow women to express more aggression, physicality, independence, assertiveness etc without disapproval, women start to do these things. Similarly as societies allow men to express emotions, vulnerabilities and cry without ridicule etc, they do. If you as a man think you are unconfined by gender roles, then you should think again.

grooki wrote: If you as a man think you are unconfined by gender roles, then you should think again.

BURN YOUR JOCKSTRAPS BOYS!!

WE'RE GOIN IN!!!

MENINISM!

fair enough then

noam wrote:

BURN YOUR JOCKSTRAPS BOYS!!

WE'RE GOIN IN!!!

MENINISM!

I burnt mine last year

Men are just as submissive or dominant as women, it's just that in most societies we're more likely to express it by being a subordinate member of a social group, an employee, a slave or a soldier. Plenty of men are pretty submissive in their domestic relationships too... how many times have you seen a man stop going out or hanging out with his mates once he gets married? Lots of families are effectively "run" by the woman perfectly naturally.

Submission and dominance is an essential characteristic of any animal that organises itself in large groups... we'd be in a constant state of battle if not.

The dynamics of personal relationships are impossible to fully appreciate from the outside and are far too complicated for generalisations and sterotypes, which reminds me of a quote I stumbled across in someone's sig on another board at some point "Sometimes a man and woman have an understanding that only that man and woman understand"

just want to make a point about the ''ism'' of feminism..

in our socio-political sphere, i feel like there needs to be a collective voice to repress certain obvious inequalities that most men might never experience. whatever the name, there are real issues that women are disproportionately facing in the present moment. real issues that may go over the heads of men, (as it did in the past.) i guess this is why the term ''feminism'' pops up. first and foremost, it's not meant to infringe on anyone, and although modern society is quite different now, we were all born into the movement in it's existence, and it presents itself as waves to mold into problematic laws and rhetoric (i'll present an example) which need to be addressed..

some men and women in society who stray away from what feminism has fought for don't realize the importance of having the right to vote, until it is taken away from them. they don't realize how important it is to be able to appear showing your hair, your skin, legs, feet, hands, in public like your male counterparts until they're unable to. they don't realize what it means to be a woman, and able to speak your mind until you can't. they don't understand the significance of the freedom it takes to say ''i don't believe in such and such'' until you're imprisoned, tortured, raped, and murdered for SIMPLE dissent. they don't understand the war against maternity leave, and the current rhetoric in the US which is aiming towards forcing women to bear and give birth to unwanted children of rape..i'm not hearing the ''humanist'' voice in politics on these specific issues.

let me detail to you the current and relevant issue of the US's stingy, barely there maternity leave policies that disproportionately hurt women then men, especially those who lack social or financial resources. supposing a woman doesn't get fired for having to take time off to birth a child (and if you think this doesn't happen, reconsider it) they are expected to:

a) save up enough money for herself and her child to live on for three months, AND especially given the costs of health insurance in the United States, simply having the baby, no complications, in a hospital is enough to wipe out that amount.

b) go back to work three weeks afer the baby is born while not everyone has eager family members or affordable daycare to tend the kids for them, while disregarding the emotional or physical feasibility for a new mom to jump back into the saddle, especially if their job is physically demanding.

c) live on "one income" as if all pregnancies are planned within double-income marriages and even when they are, what about divorce/death/disability/unemployment..

d) simply forego having children if the current system is financially inconvenient for them, when being a parent is as important to many people as having a job or an intimate relationship. it's not just a whim which the state has to tolerate. it's the basis of our society.

i'd like to add that these policies aren't just bad for women. they're bad for fathers and children as well, and the voice within our political system who is the loudest in trying to change these issues is feminism, (which men are more then welcome to join in, as it does affect them as well)

it's fine if some disagree with the term ''feminism'' though.. but with that aside, like i stated, some kind of collective voice needs to be present within the political system..call it whatever you want..

i just want to change it

LACE wrote: i'd like to add that these policies aren't just bad for women. they're bad for fathers and children as well, and the voice within our political system who is the loudest in trying to change these issues is feminism, (which men are more then welcome to join in, as it does affect them as well)

it's fine if some disagree with the term ''feminism'' though.. but with that aside, like i stated, some kind of collective voice needs to be present within the political system..call it whatever you want..

i just want to change it

yo, when i stated my minimal disapproval of the word feminism i actually made several points covering those above ^^^^

especially in the case of the most glaring disparities in rights between men and women feminism is needed

in other cases i think its superfluous

simple, and i had made that point several times

ya i know just saying =3

we're on the same page

noam wrote:

grooki wrote: If you as a man think you are unconfined by gender roles, then you should think again.

BURN YOUR JOCKSTRAPS BOYS!!

WE'RE GOIN IN!!!

MENINISM!

Lets fucking do it. Lets take back the dignity and respect we deserve...

respeck

every time I encounter a woman in any position of responsibility I feel as emasculated as this guy