Dubstepforum.com

Mr Hyde wrote: How do any second hand sale help the artist though? I guess it's been bought legit once so the artist/label gets some ££, but there seems to be no complaints about second hand shops or people selling on ebay. Copying a CD off a friend that bought it seems to be no better for the artists than buying the CD off a friend- but one is frowned upon and illegal, the other even has hight street shops doing it and making profit.

its funny you should bring that up, theres indie video game makers getting really pissed off with the way that places like gamestation etc operate their second hand section.
since the creator only gets one sale, but gamestation can effectively just buy and sell stock at reduced prices.

even worse are things like lovefilm and there equivalents, where they dont even lose stock, you just borrow it.

things are fucked for a lot of media people nowadays, just gotta get on with it innit!

btw this is the sort of idea i think is good: http://joshfreese.com/#11

granted not everyone can do that, but then he has a lot of talent so its fair.

AllNightDayDream wrote:

fractal wrote: and i could post a million times about having a pony, but it doesn't make it true. if you really believe that a majority of people who download music illegally take the time and money to purchase the music they already own just because they like it, you are delusional. sure there might be a few who do this, but only those you would find on a music message board, as they are already nerding out to music. to pretend like this is the case across the board is crazy talk and you know it.

Doesn't make the opposite true, either. Looking at the data, Computer says no. To make it simpler, the kind of people who would pirate an early EL-B release for example aren't the kind of people that don't buy music. People who download bruno mars or lil wayne? Sure.

i'll give you that for the sake of argument, but tell me this. How do we allow "responsible" illegal downloading while stopping the "irresponsible" downloading? Truth of the matter is, we can't. luckily, in dance music, you have tons of opportunities to hear the music before you buy it without having to resort to theft. Radio shows, clubs, youtube, etc... so the "i need to hear it before i buy it" argument is moot. also, how could i have a conversation with an artist i admire and respect when I'm stealing their music online? that's not me. maybe i'm still living in the haze that this place is still a community that respects its members... i'm trying to give more than i take

Honestly, i pay to go see shows, and iv bought every vinyl in my collection from second hand shops. every song on my songbird has been either a free download from the artist, or illegally downloaded, and honestly i don't give a fuck. just cause i steel music doesn't mean i don't appreciate it, I'm just a broke music lover. when all the money from sales is going to the big company's, and half the decent artist out there are giving there music away for free, i say whats the point. the money most of you spend on shity quality mp3s is worth less than the plastic its encoded into, so have fun on your high horse but Honestly in the end your just supporting big business, corporate greed, and the monetary systems in which your indebted to....

right, cause night slugs is a big business with corporate greed

i like how we are on a "high horse" if we disagree with stealing from our fam

kind of like when people call people who disagree with them "haters" to make themselves feel better, lol

fractal wrote:maybe i'm still living in the haze that this place is still a community that respects its members... i'm trying to give more than i take

we all are
that's why my downloads will be free
if you wanna vinyl you can pay $100 like

edit: you're totally wrong orange
most of these people aren't on big companies, they're on small labels that take a risk on releasing vinyls
cos if they don't sell then they're fucked, and you need a big quantity to make a release viable

monetary system is what will allow me to tour places, no need to go all zeitgeist in thread, it's about downloading, not capitalism

IMHO: illegal downloads make concerts expensive as fuck as the artist attempts to make some kind of money off of their music. IE, i took my wife to lady gaga concert for her birthday, cost almost $500 for two tickets!!!! fuck sake, didn't used to be that way

also, illegal downloads (and the little cds they go on) help to kill the vinyl industry and in turn, sound system culture. but I'm guessing you guys don't give a fuck about that either so i'm probably wasting my time...

gwan fractal. words of wisdom, although we are just wasting our time

that is true.
but people wanna experience the stuff live, they want a night with the music etc. well they must do, otherwise gigs wouldn't be getting more expensive
not saying it's cool cos i get raped on tickets too since i go to loads of gigs & festivals, but there's not a lot can be done now!

edit: i still used to download illegally though

I think taking out stubhub and similar websites could help drop ticket sales. selling tickets to the fans instead of scalpers. dont think i'm so close minded, i totaly went off the rails with my whole take down the fed attitude. its just as a world citizen and a musician i dont really see how enabling itunes and beat port to have a monopoly over digital music files is really gonna help anything. its not the indie artists whose music i'm stealing, they usually give it to me for free.

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:Because you value it. Why is that such a difficult concept?

very few people who download a decent version of a track would ever then delete and go buy it.

And you base that assumption on what?

fractal wrote:i'll give you that for the sake of argument, but tell me this. How do we allow "responsible" illegal downloading while stopping the "irresponsible" downloading? Truth of the matter is, we can't. luckily, in dance music, you have tons of opportunities to hear the music before you buy it without having to resort to theft. Radio shows, clubs, youtube, etc... so the "i need to hear it before i buy it" argument is moot. also, how could i have a conversation with an artist i admire and respect when I'm stealing their music online? that's not me. maybe i'm still living in the haze that this place is still a community that respects its members... i'm trying to give more than i take

There is no significant difference between hearing a track on youtube for free as opposed to your ipod for free. Many artists, as well as myself, don't see it as stealing for a multitude of reasons. Most artists that I've gone out and seen, and talked to, love the idea. Not to say they don't want loyal fans to support them, but the ultimate far reaching effect of piracy has been outlined again and again by me on these threads, and the data backs me up. Plenty artists see that when you quit acting like music is a commodity in itself, that the act of performing art for someone is a gratuity service, that the value of music can't be confined in such a way that the industry has tried to before this whole shift, they are rewarded.

At the risk of getting my head bitten off, I think in many ways these artists and businessmen who hate the idea of someone listening to their music for free feel entitled themselves. It's so easy to blame pirates, who have a negligible effect on the market, on a lackluster music business. I feel like many people couldn't cope with the idea that their music simply doesn't appeal widely enough to make them sustainable. Contrary to what plenty people on here believe, classic spacy dubstep is just as homogenous as brostep. Simply entering yourself into the business as a small artist or label or whatever is not going to guarantee your survival unless you offer a truly spectacular product that stands out, to which there is no objective measure to other than sales, hype, etc. The cruel irony in my mind is that there are a couple studies and testimony by even large labels that leaking releases, especially when timed right, can give you a substantial boost in sales. When you look at the data for the whole market, as much as the lower 75% of artists see boosts when their releases are pirated. I've posted this in another thread but I figure I might as well do it again:


via

fractal wrote:illegal downloads (and the little cds they go on) help to kill the vinyl industry

If you've been paying attention at all in this thread you'd know that's utter bull. Vinyl has been doing FAR better than it has in decades.

I also love capitalism, i just think it needs some reform

edit: how do i delete this shit, i didnt want to post it

AllNightDayDream wrote:

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:Because you value it. Why is that such a difficult concept?

very few people who download a decent version of a track would ever then delete and go buy it.

And you base that assumption on what?

why is that so hard to believe, assumption or not? if you think that your average illegal downloader would steal a perfectly good (in their eyes) version of a song/track, enjoy listening to it, then delete it and purchase from a legitimate site - then you are deluded. i would say a very small percentage share your ideal on this subject, you give people way too much credit

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:Because you value it. Why is that such a difficult concept?

very few people who download a decent version of a track would ever then delete and go buy it.

And you base that assumption on what?

why is that so hard to believe, assumption or not? if you think that your average illegal downloader would steal a perfectly good (in their eyes) version of a song/track, enjoy listening to it, then delete it and purchase from a legitimate site - then you are deluded. i would say a very small percentage share your ideal on this subject, you give people way too much credit

It's a baseless assumption. There's nothing behind it.

AllNightDayDream wrote:

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:Because you value it. Why is that such a difficult concept?

very few people who download a decent version of a track would ever then delete and go buy it.

And you base that assumption on what?

why is that so hard to believe, assumption or not? if you think that your average illegal downloader would steal a perfectly good (in their eyes) version of a song/track, enjoy listening to it, then delete it and purchase from a legitimate site - then you are deluded. i would say a very small percentage share your ideal on this subject, you give people way too much credit

It's a baseless assumption. There's nothing behind it.

You sound like a really fun person to know.

Conversely, where do you base your assumption that a significant amount of people download illegally, and then delete it and buy a legit version? I don't have the time, nor would I want to spend the time trawling through the internet for reports and studies when I know for a fact that pretty much all of my friends that aren't directly involved in the music industry steal all the music they have.

Steal if you want to dude, I just won't agree with it, and I think every excuse offered here so far is weak. Yes, there are artists that want to give their music out for free (my label itself is a "pay what you like" label), but I don't think we should apply that to all artists. Yes, there are artists that want income from a live show, but that doesn't mean we should expect all artists to play out or receive nothing. Near enough EVERY release now has at least a 2 minute preview of the track available before purchase, so "try before you buy" doesn't really stick.

I think people should have enough respect for an artist and label, that if they're asking for 99p (or the fraction they'll receive) from you for something a lot of work went in to, that they'd be happy to pay it. And no, I don't have a graph for that opinion.

garethom wrote: Conversely, where do you base your assumption that a significant amount of people download illegally, and then delete it and buy a legit version?

garethom wrote:I don't have the time, nor would I want to spend the time trawling through the internet for reports and studies

Look, you yourself offer elasticity on the price of your music so you understand the fundamental point. But because a couple of guys you know don't pay for music (by your own measure) means nothing.

wow, it's like talking to a wall with a handful of reports they pulled off of the internet

zzz

you keep stealing music, just don't show your thieving ass around our record shop, where community still exists and we treat each other with respect

orangeapplesauce wrote:I think taking out stubhub and similar websites could help drop ticket sales. selling tickets to the fans instead of scalpers. dont think i'm so close minded, i totaly went off the rails with my whole take down the fed attitude. its just as a world citizen and a musician i dont really see how enabling itunes and beat port to have a monopoly over digital music files is really gonna help anything. its not the indie artists whose music i'm stealing, they usually give it to me for free.

yeah the scalpers are real bastards man, when i start putting on shows it will be e-tickets/guest list only, no physical tickets! pre order or jog on keep the stnuc out that way too

you own a record store fractal? in london?

AllNightDayDream wrote:

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:

brasco wrote:

AllNightDayDream wrote:Because you value it. Why is that such a difficult concept?

very few people who download a decent version of a track would ever then delete and go buy it.

And you base that assumption on what?

why is that so hard to believe, assumption or not? if you think that your average illegal downloader would steal a perfectly good (in their eyes) version of a song/track, enjoy listening to it, then delete it and purchase from a legitimate site - then you are deluded. i would say a very small percentage share your ideal on this subject, you give people way too much credit

It's a baseless assumption. There's nothing behind it.

this is getting painful

wearecorsairs wrote: you own a record store fractal? in london?

no, i live in Seattle, and frequent the shops (live in them....)

Yeah, because piracy hurts record stores, not iTunes or Amazon. I don't have the privilege to be in london or even in a large metropolitan area where the scene is vibrant and there are steady nights you can go to, but I still found this music (through piracy) that has greatly increased the quality of my life, and have used what little money I have to show my support. For all your talk about community, just from being on this site I know you guys have a thing against outsiders and people with different views or tastes.