gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[iamallthings]

thank you

[Rickmansworth]

Instantiate Massive
Create 3 groups, call one Low, one High and one Out (or Rod, Jane and Freddy, or whatever you want to call them)
Route Low and High to Out
On Massive output channel, turn down fader all the way, you get no sound
On Massive output channel, set first send to Low, sending at -6dB
Set second send to High, sending at -6dB
Still no sound – but now on those two sends click the pre-fade send button and there you go.
You now have exactly what you had before, but split to two channels, then recombined – result is exactly the same as direct sound from Massive.
Put a LPF in the Low channel as desired, and HPF in the high channel. Treat them as you wish individually and then treat the overall sound in the out channel.

smart stuff. thanks for the protip.

[jsilver]

Its like your adding more cream to the cake, shaping the cream and then licking it off in some kind of tragic cake death crime scene to get a different shaped cake. bad i know

GOL (giggle out loud)

[mumble]

bouncing out your tune at a decent volume. as long as you leave -0.3 headroom then its cool. if you bounce out at -6db you are just losing quality.

Is there any truth behind this Macc ?

[archer]

I`ve made some tracks but don`t know too many abaout mastering mixdown`n stuff, the tutorials I found on youtube on mastering and mixing in FL studio 8 were not that helpful, so can someone help me with some tutorials, i will be forever grateful

[martello]

bouncing out your tune at a decent volume. as long as you leave -0.3 headroom then its cool. if you bounce out at -6db you are just losing quality.

Is there any truth behind this Macc ?

Straaange....where are mine and Macc's replies? I'm sure I replied and its not here anymore. Deleted?

[mumble]

bouncing out your tune at a decent volume. as long as you leave -0.3 headroom then its cool. if you bounce out at -6db you are just losing quality.

Is there any truth behind this Macc ?

Straaange....where are mine and Macc's replies? I'm sure I replied and its not here anymore. Deleted?

A load of posts got deleted the other day for some reason to do with servers or something.

[jjbutler88]

Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

I'm still struggling to get this. If I follow these (as a rough guideline, not gospel, I know) then my mix just sounds really quiet. The master level barely reaches 75% and I end up having to crank up my monitors to hear the mix properly. Providing I am mastering it myself, would it not be better to mix things a little louder until I get just below the clipping volume on the master?

Sorry if its a noob question, you obviously know your stuff macc, just curious as to what the advantages are of mixing to your guidelines?

[macc]

bouncing out your tune at a decent volume. as long as you leave -0.3 headroom then its cool. if you bounce out at -6db you are just losing quality.

Is there any truth behind this Macc ?

Straaange....where are mine and Macc's replies? I'm sure I replied and its not here anymore. Deleted?

Luckily I copied this which I wrote on DOA a while back;

There's nothing technically/sonically wrong with dropping the master fader to avoid clipping. But it is - IMO - an inefficient practice, or rather, a symptom of inefficiency elsewhere.

The only problem you'll run into (when the fader is really really low) is fader resolution. This is a GUI thing, nothing to do with sonic resolution. That is, if your fader is down at -60dB and you want to adjust it by a dB it will be hard! Down there the fader has lower/different resolution. You'll make the smallest movement and it will jump 20dB or something Frankly though if that becomes an issue you have much more important things to worry about, such as why the f#ck your mix needs to be turned down 60dB!

If you want to keep your master fader at 0 then it sounds to me like you should adjust your mixing habits and keep track/channel levels lower from the word go. :thumbup: Stops you moving the goalposts about and will give you better mixes! Why have all the shit on the left turned way up only to take it all away on the right? There's really no need at all to try to have everything up close to 0 in your mix, and especially at your output.

This leads nicely into your other question about resolution;

Modern sequencers work at 32bit floating point. This is essentially (if not strictly) 24-bit resolution with an extra 8 bits to make it a 'sliding scale'. This is why your +60dB mix doesn't sound clipped once you turn the master fader down 60dB (unless plugins are clipping internally - waves for example). So, forgetting the clipping stuff, under 0dB we have 24 bits. The rule of thumb is 6dB of dynamic range per bit, which isn't perfectly exact but very close. So to take some common bit depths;

24 bit x 6 = 144dB of dynamic range before reaching the inherent digital noise floor.
16 bit x 6 = 96dB of dynamic range before hitting the noise floor
12 bit x 6 = 72dB of dynamic range
8 bit x 6 = 48dB of dynamic range

So if we're working in any modern sequencer, to have the equivalent resolution of:

16 bit audio: mix is going to be peaking at -48dB
12 bit audio: mix is going to be peaking at -72dB
8 bit audio: mix is going to be peaking at -96dB

This is not really perfectly correct but it illustrates the point nicely :smil: A more pertinent point for the real world - even on DSF no one is going to have a mix peaking at -48 FFS - would be mixes peaking at -3/5/10 or whatever.

I've had messages from people on here concerned cos their mix is peaking at -5dB. They feel inadequate and worry that their girlfriend might leave them (ok, that last bit isn't true). You'd think peaking at -5 was some sort of heresy worthy of burning at the stake, COZ IT DONN MAXX AHT ALL DA BITZ, at least with some people. So people force everything up and walk that tightrope of getting their mix to peak at -0.1 without clipping. -0.2 is wasting resolution, must get that last 0.1dB in there!

But as you can see, even a mix peaking at -5dB uses all 24 bits. Fuck's sake, even a mix peaking at -10dB is using 23 bits ( = 138dB dynamic range)! The examples above hopefully show that your mix has to be really really really fucking low to worry about audible degradation caused by wasting resolution.

So, in summary, when mixing in a modern digital environment there is no need at all to try to get everything as close to 0 as possible. Keep levels conservative from the start of the signal path, at the track level, and allow them to add naturally. You won't be worrying about clipping or intersample peaks, everything will sound better, your ME will thank you (it is inexcusable to submit a mix that clips IMO), and you won't be moving your master fader about, everything will be more efficient and allow you more time to worry about making music.

[macc]

I'm still struggling to get this. If I follow these (as a rough guideline, not gospel, I know) then my mix just sounds really quiet. The master level barely reaches 75% and I end up having to crank up my monitors to hear the mix properly. Providing I am mastering it myself, would it not be better to mix things a little louder until I get just below the clipping volume on the master?

Sorry if its a noob question, you obviously know your stuff macc, just curious as to what the advantages are of mixing to your guidelines?

All this is already answered in this thread

You're looking to have the best the quality and inherent power in your mix, without fighting against clipping. You get repeatable mixes, you don't chase your tail meaning you don't waste time, you build up experience in knowing fairly well where any given element in a mix will peak (once you've done quite a few, say 50+), you never have to worry about clipping, and with time you learn to build big fat mixes that sound AWESOME with no reliance on smashing the balls off the master to try to make it sound fat (though smashing the balls off your master as a mix checking tool is still useful), with no clipping, with clean sound because things aren't operating outside their limits, a good knowledge of gain structure that will serve you well if you mix on some other system, not be running plugins too hot which can cause problems etc etc...

THEN, when you have a good fat inherently powerful mix, good mastering will be able to take this huge powerful punchy mix and make a huge powerful, loud and punchy master.

Other than that there's no advantage at all


Besides which, what's wrong with turning your speakers up? It doesn't mean you have a small willy

[hallucination]

Hi. I have been thinking a while about the possibility to find a guy on this forum, who's interested in mastering tracks for free?
- I know it doesn't have the biggest relevance for this topic, but i guess i would try searching an answer in this topic, where the most of the DJ's & Producers are looking.

[spherix]

I'm still struggling to get this. If I follow these (as a rough guideline, not gospel, I know) then my mix just sounds really quiet. The master level barely reaches 75% and I end up having to crank up my monitors to hear the mix properly. Providing I am mastering it myself, would it not be better to mix things a little louder until I get just below the clipping volume on the master?

Sorry if its a noob question, you obviously know your stuff macc, just curious as to what the advantages are of mixing to your guidelines?

All this is already answered in this thread

You're looking to have the best the quality and inherent power in your mix, without fighting against clipping. You get repeatable mixes, you don't chase your tail meaning you don't waste time, you build up experience in knowing fairly well where any given element in a mix will peak (once you've done quite a few, say 50+), you never have to worry about clipping, and with time you learn to build big fat mixes that sound AWESOME with no reliance on smashing the balls off the master to try to make it sound fat (though smashing the balls off your master as a mix checking tool is still useful), with no clipping, with clean sound because things aren't operating outside their limits, a good knowledge of gain structure that will serve you well if you mix on some other system, not be running plugins too hot which can cause problems etc etc...

THEN, when you have a good fat inherently powerful mix, good mastering will be able to take this huge powerful punchy mix and make a huge powerful, loud and punchy master.

Other than that there's no advantage at all


Besides which, what's wrong with turning your speakers up? It doesn't mean you have a small willy

LOOOL gold!
thanks macc for all your patience with everyone, and useful knowledge.
whilst i employ most of these tips anyways, i do have a question about routing my 3 stereo and two mono outputs into an analog desk/reel to reel
now whilst analog desks allow you to "soft clip" and add a degree of tightness/gluing to the mix when gently driven at the input stage, would you see this as a bad thing, if, say, the techniques discused earlier (source sounds low, only nibbling at the cake) but then output bus turned up to peak 0 after the mix is done -> analog desk -> re-recorded into computer?
keeping in mind this is for tunes of my own to play out or send to labels etc.
would you think this is an ok way to gain them up without cliipping at all, considering to send it for mastering would only mean taking the levels back down to -3 at the output stage?

sorry if that didnt make sense

[dav.id]

I'm really glad with all this good advice for FREE...but I'm struggling with this problem.

If you have you kicks/snares at around -8 db what should the db's of all the other sounds be? I know that your sub bass has to be around 2 db's lower then your drums, but what about hi hats/shakers synths vocals strings etc, cuz I don't know what the general/basic volumes are...

sorry for my english if you don't understand.
thanks already

[macc]

LOOOL gold!
thanks macc for all your patience with everyone, and useful knowledge.
whilst i employ most of these tips anyways, i do have a question about routing my 3 stereo and two mono outputs into an analog desk/reel to reel
now whilst analog desks allow you to "soft clip" and add a degree of tightness/gluing to the mix when gently driven at the input stage, would you see this as a bad thing, if, say, the techniques discused earlier (source sounds low, only nibbling at the cake) but then output bus turned up to peak 0 after the mix is done -> analog desk -> re-recorded into computer?
keeping in mind this is for tunes of my own to play out or send to labels etc.
would you think this is an ok way to gain them up without cliipping at all, considering to send it for mastering would only mean taking the levels back down to -3 at the output stage?

sorry if that didnt make sense

Doh - I missed this, sorry. I know we covered it on AIM but it makes sense to put it in here just in case.

Analogue and digital are different. when using an outboard mixer, you should still adhere to the general 'no louder than it needs to be' principle, but you have to bear noise floor in mind.

To put it simply, as we said on AIM, 'digital cool and analogue hot'. That's the way to get the best of both. Push the channels and the desk according to your taste, but when dealing with the digital side of things, keep the levels rational. So, feeding channels out of the soundcard to your mixer channel ins, you want the signal to be healthy but not banging. You can then make up the gain to 'push' the channel a bit using the gain on the mixer. Feeding a signal out of your soundcard at -40dB and then turning it up 30 will only bring up the noise floor with it, but you don't want to clip your AD/DA convertors at ANY time, under any circumstances.

Similarly, pushing the mixer's master channel so it gently hits the yellow/red might sound good, but then use the correct output and gain stage as appropriate to get that 'fattened' signal back into the computer at a non-dangerous level (ie, careful not to clip). Digital cool, analogue hot (to taste, as appropriate etc)

Last point, not really on this subject but relevant to this post; If you are pushing mixer channels hard then you are obliged to make sure your eq is on the money. The harder you push, the more harmonics you generate. If there is stuff in your signal that doesn't need to be there you are generating harmonics you don't want in proportions you don't want. So your eq - possibly before AND after running the channel hot - needs to be spot on.

[macc]

I'm really glad with all this good advice for FREE...but I'm struggling with this problem.

If you have you kicks/snares at around -8 db what should the db's of all the other sounds be? I know that your sub bass has to be around 2 db's lower then your drums, but what about hi hats/shakers synths vocals strings etc, cuz I don't know what the general/basic volumes are...

sorry for my english if you don't understand.
thanks already

Time for another food analogy!

I just thought of this one so it might not hold up very well to scrutiny

You're making dinner.

Plate = 0dB
Meat = drums
potatoes = bass
gravy = everything else


If you put half a plate (-6dB) of meat and half a plate (-6dB) of potatoes on the plate, when you pour the gravy on it will go over the sides and get all over the table.

If you leave enough space - as you are doing - then as long as you don't pour way too much gravy on, it won't spill over. The gravy fills the gaps between the potatoes, and the meat, and holds everything together. But it doesn't spill over. So unless you have a really bad gravy addiction (lord knows I have), you can put the right amount of gravy for your taste without worrying about it spilling over.

So, how much gravy do you like?

[lowpass]

Last point, not really on this subject but relevant to this post; If you are pushing mixer channels hard then you are obliged to make sure your eq is on the money. The harder you push, the more harmonics you generate. If there is stuff in your signal that doesn't need to be there you are generating harmonics you don't want in proportions you don't want. So your eq - possibly before AND after running the channel hot - needs to be spot on.

I don't use this technique (I have no analogue equipment lol) but that sounds like very good advice, Im gonna try it next time I get to use an analog desk. Thanks for teaching me something new for the day

[macc]

Depends on the desk of course... not all desks sound good pushed.

[lowpass]

Depends on the desk of course... not all desks sound good pushed.

I meant regarding taking the frequencies out that you don't want to be distorted, makes sense.

Could you enlighten me a little on the subject of distortion? things like odd/even harmonic distortion, what is the result from analog distortion?

[dav.id]

I'm really glad with all this good advice for FREE...but I'm struggling with this problem.

If you have you kicks/snares at around -8 db what should the db's of all the other sounds be? I know that your sub bass has to be around 2 db's lower then your drums, but what about hi hats/shakers synths vocals strings etc, cuz I don't know what the general/basic volumes are...

sorry for my english if you don't understand.
thanks already

Time for another food analogy!

I just thought of this one so it might not hold up very well to scrutiny

You're making dinner.

Plate = 0dB
Meat = drums
potatoes = bass
gravy = everything else


If you put half a plate (-6dB) of meat and half a plate (-6dB) of potatoes on the plate, when you pour the gravy on it will go over the sides and get all over the table.

If you leave enough space - as you are doing - then as long as you don't pour way too much gravy on, it won't spill over. The gravy fills the gaps between the potatoes, and the meat, and holds everything together. But it doesn't spill over. So unless you have a really bad gravy addiction (lord knows I have), you can put the right amount of gravy for your taste without worrying about it spilling over.

So, how much gravy do you like?

, thanks for the funny and good info. and I like alot of gravy