Magma wrote:alien pimp wrote:I rephrase: how long is the banking history, when in that history did they restraint from practices that hurt the people and why in all this period governments never managed to control their actions but rather get controlled by them?
Various reasons. I'd suggest reading The Ascent Of Money by Niall Ferguson. It's a really good (and pretty objective) book about how the world of finance became so powerful. But again, history doesn't matter so much... what matters is what we do now. And if nobody has alternatives to using banks to organise our money - then we must reform, not replace.
You can only replace if you have an available replacement!
and what in the world encourages us to think banks are that weak now that they will allow anyone reform them? how in the world would not that contradict with their quest for controlling and not being controlled?
to reform them to the point they work for their customers would mean anyway to transform them in something new - aka replacement
also i'm not the one payed to provide the replacement, i'm the one entitled to it as the payer, so it's not my job. the whole debate hangs in if one guy on a board has a replacement
) that's desperately wanting to prove the guy wrong not the idea
Magma wrote:Also: governments aren't hired by the people to represent their interests? Thinking governments outside the people is very wrong.
Governments are hired by the people to represent their interests. That's how democracy should work. If it isn't working effectively enough then, again, it needs reform, not replacement.
you missed the point: you said you can't expect the people to control the banks, but governments are the people and made of people.
Magma wrote:"Utopia" is sometimes used pejoratively, in reference to an unrealistic ideal that is impossible to achieve, and has spawned other concepts, most prominently dystopia.
In latest time, this is the prominent meaning of the word, even if it spawned from what you say.
We disagree. The dictionary appears to be on my side:
Noun
any real or imaginary society, place, or state considered to be perfect or ideal [coined by Sir Thomas More in 1516 as the title of his book that described an imaginary island representing the perfect society, literally: no place, from Greek ou not + topos a place]
But anyway, it doesn't matter. Banking is a tool of society, any attempt from either side to define it as a political code that can result in utopia/dystopia represents a corruption of understanding. It is a tradeable service just in the same way that houses, fizzy drinks, concert tickets or clothes are tradeable goods.
yeah, only houses don't kill people for money
and the small percentage of fair service is just the cover-up for much larger financial operations that are harmful to everyone but them
Magma wrote:governments must regulate" is different from "governments did regulate" or "governments are able to regulate" - hence the utopia
Again, we're talking about what to do
now. Not what has been done in the past. We should be looking for solutions, not scapegoats.
who's "we", i'm not in that,
I'm talking about people working there NOW and being a piece in their corrupt machinery and getting payed blood money that were made from shit in the past, and them trying to appear they work for a better future there, while nobody asks them about the future, just to comply and help screwing people for money. We're talking about the system not giving us any chance to regulate it because it's too powerful and while you
were supporting them they just fixed themselves some trillions and g20
and what to do now depends on what can be done.
Magma wrote:- As soon as I have enough money in my possession that it would screw my life over considerably to have it all stolen (i.e. pay day every month) I need a bank account.
since when banks don't steal and are safe???
you need a form of securing your cash and your transactions, not a bank account.
anyway, they were already stolen a long time ago and they keep being stolen, because all your work and your kids' work is owed to the banks the state borrows from, and the debt is always going to be enough to keep you as a slave, they are casinos where only the house wins at the end of the day.
what you use now is a loan your kids will pay for most probably
Magma wrote:
- If I ever wanted to buy a house, I'd need the help of a bank - unless I wanted to save up hundreds of thousand pounds in cash in my living room.
any good produced is produced to be sold. nobody would make only houses that people can't buy, it would be pointless. if it wasn't for the speculative economy encouraged by banks the houses would have now affordable prices, but why should they sell them cheap when it's so easy to use money you didn't work for yet and to sell your ass to the banks?! the prices in US now are dictated by the market more than before, they become cheaper because the speculative system collapsed.
Magma wrote:- If I want to send money to family or friends that I can't simply meet with cash then I need to make use of banking functions.
gee...
your perception of banks is something that saves space and holds secure your money and transactions, but that's more like paypal
Magma wrote:That's not difficult to follow - you're only difficult to follow when you don't write English!
so far what you didn't understand was a decent example of english to be written on a forum discussion, at least until proved different
i make mistakes but not much more than some native speakers here.
and you also don't seem to understand what other native speakers say hence their reactions in some topics. so lower volume on that lame excuse for your inabilities pls!
Magma wrote:Yes, I believe it's ok. I believe that the negative practises of banks are symptomatic of society as a whole and whilst I think it's important for the people to have intelligent discussion and to be involved in the democratic process in order to alter things, I don't believe that this is achieved by demonising one, single area of society. You have to get to the root cause, which is a general failure in society to attribute wealth correctly. The desire for profit has exceeded the desire for happiness, homes are now investment opportunities (as Stewart Lee lovingly pointed out last night), music acts are seen as tradeable commodities, cars are seen as valid reason to choose partners and bankers rule the roost - this attitude needs changing. This is a lot more complicated than "BANKS ARE BAD".
I don't believe that one man's stand of giving up their livelyhood (I work for a bank because a company that contracts to banks had a job when I needed one) would make any tangible difference whatsoever. Actually, I think I make far more difference in playing the role of the pinko, lefty liberal amongst my colleagues (it might shock you to realise that I'm actually pretty leftwing compared to most people) than I would by giving up my job and living a miserable life signing on.
so you basically wash the shit from your hands through a compensatory dissident activity, huh?
if i had time i'd want to watch that in action
Magma wrote:
My catchphrase for this whole discussion has been "black/white thinking". I believe that a great deal of harm is done to this country through people believing that things are simply GOOD or BAD. Real issues very rarely fall into these categories and almost all issues require a bit more thought to come to a proper opinion.
that's a total failure in logic, because grey is white + black, only idealistically the mixture is equal, so one thing is rather white or rather black aka rather bad or rather good, so it's actually just these 2 options and a lot of people propagating ignorance through a misunderstood metaphor
Magma wrote:This "proper thought" is why mine, tr0tsky's, kins, eLBe's etc posts take up paragraphs and your posts contain only insults, short, vague sentences and links to other people's thoughts that you're substituting for your own.
please please do! the amount of fun i'd have afterwards would pay off for everything!
later on i might have time to even teach you how that's done properly
