gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[Dubzteppa]

hey everyone, noob question coming up..

well, ive just started dj'ing a few weeks back and have a question about beatmatching,

When people choose what songs to mix do they take into account the BPM and key, for example, do people mainly mix say a 140bpm song into another 140bpm song that both have similar keys (say 7b and 8b)?

or do people often mix say a 140bpm track into a 135bpm track both of which have disimilar keys? and do people always take note of the bpm and key of the tracks, or just do it by ear?

i know im putting this in a really awkward way but im having difficulty mixing certain tracks together, i have a set of cdj's and a mixer that do not have a bpm counter and am finding it really hard to get the beats to match without clashing or sounding nasty with two tunes that have diff bpm's

any tips or advice for a noob who really wants to improve?

[macc]

Hello there,

This thread isn't really about that kind of mixing

Maybe the mod can cut your post out and start a nw thread with it

Good luck.

[lowpass]

hey everyone, noob question coming up..

well, ive just started dj'ing a few weeks back and have a question about beatmatching,

When people choose what songs to mix do they take into account the BPM and key, for example, do people mainly mix say a 140bpm song into another 140bpm song that both have similar keys (say 7b and 8b)?

or do people often mix say a 140bpm track into a 135bpm track both of which have disimilar keys? and do people always take note of the bpm and key of the tracks, or just do it by ear?

i know im putting this in a really awkward way but im having difficulty mixing certain tracks together, i have a set of cdj's and a mixer that do not have a bpm counter and am finding it really hard to get the beats to match without clashing or sounding nasty with two tunes that have diff bpm's

any tips or advice for a noob who really wants to improve?

Like macc said, doesn't really fit in here but I'll answer.

Most of the tracks I mix are exactly the same bpm anyway so I don't have too much of a problem. But say I'm mixing a 135 bpm track with a 140 bpm track (both are 8b) I won't really take into account the change in pitch from the pitch fader. If it works it works, if it doesn't move on and pick a different track.

Not once have I had a problem in pitch mixing between tracks within around 5%. After a certain point the tracks will start to change key if you keep pushing the pitch, but if thats the case then the odds are they sound like ass anyway with you changing the speed of it so drastically.

[martello]

Good reading:

http://kimlajoie.wordpress.com/tag/compression/

[james fox]

Good reading:

http://kimlajoie.wordpress.com/tag/compression/

great blog! cheers

[mooseforyebs]

i have my master cranked to the max when at every level of making a tune, i just recently realized that this might not be the best way to do things? or is it?

so much useful info in this thread, big ups to macc.

[macc]

i have my master cranked to the max when at every level of making a tune, i just recently realized that this might not be the best way to do things? or is it?

so much useful info in this thread, big ups to macc.

The crux of this thread is that digital sounds better when not pushed to the max, far from it.

In an ideal world, keeping your faders at unity, getting things right from the absolute start of the signal chain, and letting them 'add up' naturally should mean that every individual track and the master channel are all under 0dB and everything sounds as it should. Pushing everything to the max from the word go means there's nowhere left to go, and distortion piles up fast.

There's no rules and all that sort of thing, so do as you feel best of course But the unavoidable fact is that the nature of digital dictates that it sounds far far better under 0dB than it does over it. If loudness is a concern, then quality breeds loudness. You can make a great mix loud, it's much harder to make a loud mix great

[djhybridcoventry]

Hi btw this thread is probarly the most helpful thread ive ever read on a forum absolute legend mate, there was a few questions i wanted ask sorry if they might have been posted already but this thread is hench.

1. When processing my bass i split it up into 3 channels (High,Mid & Low) i read that your Sub should be around 1 or 2db less than your drums but does that also apply to your the Mid & High channels if not around how much more or less db should they be compared to the Sub?

2. Im sure somebody might have asked this already but what would you say is the best level to have your Master Channel Set/Peaking at?

3. Around what level should i have vocals compared to the Drums & Bass to make it nice and clear but not too loud in the mix?

4. I like to use Hall kicks in a lot of my intro's to create a good atmosphere but im not sure if they sound too loud when i play a tune out on club speakers, i usually have them set around -10 / -11 (1 or 2 db below the sub) is this too much? also bare in mind im talking about the intro not when the tune has dropped or anything.

if you could shed any light id be extremely grateful.

Thanks!

[mooseforyebs]

i have my master cranked to the max when at every level of making a tune, i just recently realized that this might not be the best way to do things? or is it?

so much useful info in this thread, big ups to macc.

The crux of this thread is that digital sounds better when not pushed to the max, far from it.

In an ideal world, keeping your faders at unity, getting things right from the absolute start of the signal chain, and letting them 'add up' naturally should mean that every individual track and the master channel are all under 0dB and everything sounds as it should. Pushing everything to the max from the word go means there's nowhere left to go, and distortion piles up fast.

There's no rules and all that sort of thing, so do as you feel best of course But the unavoidable fact is that the nature of digital dictates that it sounds far far better under 0dB than it does over it. If loudness is a concern, then quality breeds loudness. You can make a great mix loud, it's much harder to make a loud mix great

I never let my mix get near 0db when mixing, im just saying that i leave my master on max, so as to let everything build together into the strongest mix i can make. So while the master is to the max, the audio never gets above -2 to -3 db.

[Sharmaji]

how the hell did i miss the gravy/plate analogy????

[macc]

I never let my mix get near 0db when mixing, im just saying that i leave my master on max, so as to let everything build together into the strongest mix i can make. So while the master is to the max, the audio never gets above -2 to -3 db.

Having the fader at the top isn't a bad thing if the audio's at the right level. Sorry, I misunderstood you Depends on your sequencer whether the max is unity gain (0dB) or something more though. Always best to leave it at unity and save pissing about, IMHO. Either way, it has zero effect on the 'strength' of your mix.

[output9]

I'm a bit confused by this -6 -3 db stuff, I tend to just use my ears. Have a mix down & wander around, to the next room, on the stairs, even go outside! then you can clearly hear if your parts are too loud or quiet. Just as long as the master out isn't clipping. I will give this mixing by numbers technique a go but I am a little puzzled

[arktrix45hz]

I'm a bit confused by this -6 -3 db stuff, I tend to just use my ears. Have a mix down & wander around, to the next room, on the stairs, even go outside! then you can clearly hear if your parts are too loud or quiet. Just as long as the master out isn't clipping. I will give this mixing by numbers technique a go but I am a little puzzled

As far as I'm aware and from what I've read, that'd lead to a shitty sounding, "plastic" mix if that makes sense?

[lowpass]

I'm a bit confused by this -6 -3 db stuff, I tend to just use my ears. Have a mix down & wander around, to the next room, on the stairs, even go outside! then you can clearly hear if your parts are too loud or quiet. Just as long as the master out isn't clipping. I will give this mixing by numbers technique a go but I am a little puzzled

As far as I'm aware and from what I've read, that'd lead to a shitty sounding, "plastic" mix if that makes sense?

Just another perception of your mix. Listening to it on different monitors, different positions, different rooms can all reveal a flaw in your mix that your usual monitoring position might not uncover. Obviously don't do the majority of your mixing from another room otherwise you'll probably end up boosting all the top end and getting some funky sounding mix, but it's nice to check to see if anything stands out

[macc]

I'm a bit confused by this -6 -3 db stuff, I tend to just use my ears. Have a mix down & wander around, to the next room, on the stairs, even go outside! then you can clearly hear if your parts are too loud or quiet. Just as long as the master out isn't clipping. I will give this mixing by numbers technique a go but I am a little puzzled

You're not puzzled at all - what you're doing is EXACTLY what I'm advocating. Don't clip, make it sound good. Simple as that.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you'd read the thread thoroughly (and I can understand why one wouldn't) you'd see that I only ever use numbers as VERY general guidelines. I must have typed 'don't obsess over the numbers' 1000 times in here

I do NOT under any circumstances advise mixing by numbers, just being aware of them is enough.

Once again; keep levels rational, make mix sound fat and good and everything, don't clip. Simple as that.

[safeandsound]

Drum transients hitting (peak) -3dBFS could be typical actually
they are not a constant signal like a bassline and are likely to "peak" unless heavily
compressed or limited, their peak level therefore would be far in excess of where a bassline
would sit as an average.

Of course gain structure is an important thing (arguably at input more than output) but if you are not going above -3dBFS
with your mix peaks (which are in all likelyhood going to be your drums, percussion) you are doing ok.

Neither are you going to get an exact 6dB increase in the sum between a kick drum and a bassline
unless they are the same frequency and in phase.

I think this thread has become unnecessarily complicated.

In terms of mix quality and mastering, whether you mix peaks at -12dBFS or -2dBFS at 24 bit resolution
is not of significant consequence, either will have the potential to sound excellent as long as you have not exceeded digital zero.

[macc]

I think this thread has become unnecessarily complicated.

In terms of mix quality and mastering, whether you mix peaks at -12dBFS or -2dBFS at 24 bit resolution
is not of significant consequence, either will have the potential to sound excellent as long as you have not exceeded digital zero.

I'd agree with all that. Keep your levels down, things sound better. That's the whole point. So long as that is kept in mind the thread isn't overly complicated, it's just a discussion of surrounding issues and relative newcomers trying to understand it better.

I do think it's entirely misleading to suggest that if your drums peak at -3 then your mix will probably peak at -3 though.

[safeandsound]

Well for convenience and safeties sake (less chance of overs) a little lower will not do any harm.

There is so much of greater consequence that will determine whether a mix is good or bad
ultimately, it's highly skilled job getting a good mix together.

The way I mix is to mix once, refine the mix on a second pass, leave it a day and then listen back and refine again.
It's the only way I personally can get a good result, if there is time pressure involved I rarely get results which I know I can using
the above method. Everyone will eventually find their own style with practice.

[ellis clavane]

Hi everybody. I was wondering if anyone could help me with my mastering on a certain track. i have no "real" experiance of mastering because i have always had crap speakers but recently i have now baught some AKG K-240 MK2 headphones (not managed to afford monitors yet) so hopefully i will stand a better chance now.

I have read quite alot on snares and kick drums and i think i have managed to make an alright snare however i dont think my kick is very good. my sub is also laking something ( i dont know what yet lol) and so is the bassline i have used towards the end.

i have just started the track and i kno it needs alot doing to it, expecialy in the mastering (since i am a newbee to it), but im just wondering if anyone could help me fatten up the track and make my drums and bass sound better . it would b grate if i could get some general tips on mastering aswell i know the track randomly cuts off, it is no where near finished lol. thanks

Soundcloud

[macc]

Wotcher Ellis,

Maybe copy that post and put it here;

http://www.dubstepforum.com/put-your-wo ... 71469.html

It's more tailored for that sort of thing This is theory class, that's practical