Dubstepforum.com

RKM wrote:safe beautiful people. how much does it matter if these little meters are clipping but the main volume one's not even close to doing so

this is something i've noticed sounds ok if creating a distorted mid bass, or tweaking drums but usually unpleasant buzzing with sub





and more generally, quite often get slight but unpleasant nasty overtones from trying to thicken up sub lines when they're a long way from clipping, after a really powerful but smooth sound, especially when using 808 kicks, saturation etc makes them buzz a long way from the desired result,

a question of resampling again and again, applying the effects really subtly each time?

Reduce your input or output, wherever the clipping is happening. Also check hubb's signature.

ok so clipping is bad even in those little meters cool, that's not a picture of the effects im using just to be clear, got it off google

In boring correct learning it is

but you can use it instead of for example distortion or compression and it's the sound you recognise from for example optical or a load of the german airport techno heads . .. you know the really filmscore-y textured stuff

it's a drastic and destructive effect but it's more natural than it's counterparts when done right

really deep level stuff imo, but it's better to get it going than having to implement after having learned all the correct 'wrong' habits that a lot of music production consists of


sorry for the abstract answer, but I guess you will have to make your mind up

yeah yeah, so it will distort sound so i'll avoid it when that's not what i'm going for
but yeah if i'm trying to get a really dirty distorted sound on it it's not a big bother,
it's quite strange in electronic music the emphasis on avoiding unintentional natural overdrive sound in favour of specific effects, when in guitar rock the unintentional overdrive/distortion from having amps on too loud with too much gain gives such a desirable sound

I'll try to say it in another way

take a track with the sound you are aiming for and put it inside your daw and then compare the percieved volume levels - while making and mixing your track down

do comparisons all the time for a while

what you will find is that the percieved loudness and the read out on meters, or even how much compression you think is going on, varies a whole lot, doesn't translate into db in a logical way and probably only really makes sence on a sound by sound basis if you had their mix availabe in stems, but it's still the sum that matters and what you want to compare to.. so thats the reason for the somewhat akward approach.

so what you do is you get a load of experience and end up knowing how much 'weight' each effect can yield on specific types of sounds - ie how much you can get away with in terms of forcing or squeezing loudness out of something and then it becomes second nature and you stop worrying and just make

RKM wrote:yeah yeah, so it will distort sound so i'll avoid it when that's not what i'm going for
but yeah if i'm trying to get a really dirty distorted sound on it it's not a big bother,
it's quite strange in electronic music the emphasis on avoiding unintentional natural overdrive sound in favour of specific effects, when in guitar rock the unintentional overdrive/distortion from having amps on too loud with too much gain gives such a desirable sound

ahh I responded before reading this

the best answer is to listen to your inner guitarist

- people that have more of a producers approach often have a tendency to fetishize clean and fucking scummy shit like that , because they get to sit and fiddle with the gain structure and other dorks get to measure theirs and compare

but it's bad taste in the sence that it becomes sort of trainspotting instead and that thought process tend to become quantative instead of qualitative

To clarify, it is not computer vs guitars, its itb vs otb, digital vs analog. Truss, in the analog world its all about diving into the red, it is not the same in digital, and why the digital transition caused so much trouble. There is very little you can do with digital clipping. It has close to one sound.

But the benefit of digital is the supremely low noise floor. That allows you to work at a lower level, and then use tools (plugins) to simulate the red area of analog.

nowaysj wrote:To clarify, it is not computer vs guitars, its itb vs otb, digital vs analog. Truss, in the analog world its all about diving into the red, it is not the same in digital, and why the digital transition caused so much trouble. There is very little you can do with digital clipping. It has close to one sound.

But the benefit of digital is the supremely low noise floor. That allows you to work at a lower level, and then use tools (plugins) to simulate the red area of analog.

This 100%.

Nowaysj...you are so bad for my GAS...now I'm on eBay looking at old mackie mixers I don't have room for...on point video though...FWIW...D16 Devastator gets about 95% of the way to this sound on a 909 kick drum. I use it on Gold Baby 909s all the time.

Yeah, bought that full d16 pack when they had a deal. Honestly, I don't use them enough. I really don't. I don't know what is wrong with me?

---

Re GAS - yeah, because my studio is not setup, I'm gassing really bad. If I can sit down and make music, I'm okay, the gas is way in check. Spent a good year there with no gas at all. But now that I'm all in boxes, I'm like freaking out. Bought an ACP-8, a digitech something xl fx rack, and a patchbay.... and I see a mixer in my near future. My wife might seriously throw me out... She just bought a $60 mop bucket, imo that translates to at least $350 on a classic tank consul that can serve me for the rest of my life.

fragments wrote:Nowaysj...you are so bad for my GAS...now I'm on eBay looking at old mackie mixers I don't have room for...on point video though...FWIW...D16 Devastator gets about 95% of the way to this sound on a 909 kick drum. I use it on Gold Baby 909s all the time.

I'd get a mixer local.

1. Shipping is really high, unless you're getting a small compact, and even then.

2. There is so much that can go wrong on a mixer, so many buttons and knobs, and they get heavily used, best to buy local and test it out before you buy it. Specially when we're talking about 10+ year old mixers of midrange quality to begin with.

3. Prices on the fleabay are too high. I find WAY better deals local. I now live in a place where, for some reason, gear goes pretty cheap, people sell local.

interesting stuff all round, cheers

Honestly, I think I could score you an A&H for half the ebay price, shipping it to ohio is another matter.

nowaysj wrote:There is very little you can do with digital clipping. It has close to one sound.

Compared with the nice subtleties of hardware compressors you are right.. except in cases where we treat a sound individually. Because then you just cook it to the shape you want it to have (minding the context it would be going in). And in digital we have wave distortion and waveshaping closer to us than before.

I'm sorry for referencing optical again and again but

sound engineers spent a life-time studying drum recording or vocal recording....it will be hard to beat them on a specific thing, but you need to build on what they have to make a beat...I really avoid using compressors on drum hits if I can, its much better to try and balance each hit to the right level using volume controls or envelopes than rely on a compressor to do the job..a compressor will AlWAYS REMOVE dynamics (to be clear, it might enhance the dynamic effect of a beat when used EXACTLY right, but only if that beat has hits EXACTLY the same distance apart...unlikely in a complex rhythmic beat in dnb...so it might make some hits right, others will pump or squash, best used for a very small amount of 'glue' if needed....like 1-3db reduction at most, just enough), thats what it does...it removes the difference between quiet and loud parts of your audio...it was invented to stop recordings from being too quiet when a note was played softly or a vocal hit was too low or far away from the mic because the vocalist moved or did something soft. I kept everything from a vocal or instrument recording at a certain level....a compressor is good for making a drum track a bit louder, perhaps glueing it a bit...but the individual hits want to be the correct shape every time they hit...a compressor reacts to every hit at once in a group...individual hits should be the best shape volume wise that fits the track...a volume envelope and correct cutting of sample should work in most situations, not tons of compressors..All my best beats have NO compressors, just getting levels right.

Maybe it could be argued that itb favours composition because composition might be closer to dreaming or thinking than production is but I dont even know if there's a reason to distinguish those two anymore or if it says a lot

I think the learning curve of the d16 bits ive tried has been wrong ¨

atleast that sounds better than telling myself Im slow

nowaysj wrote:Yeah, bought that full d16 pack when they had a deal. Honestly, I don't use them enough. I really don't. I don't know what is wrong with me?

---

Re GAS - yeah, because my studio is not setup, I'm gassing really bad. If I can sit down and make music, I'm okay, the gas is way in check. Spent a good year there with no gas at all. But now that I'm all in boxes, I'm like freaking out. Bought an ACP-8, a digitech something xl fx rack, and a patchbay.... and I see a mixer in my near future. My wife might seriously throw me out... She just bought a $60 mop bucket, imo that translates to at least $350 on a classic tank consul that can serve me for the rest of my life.

Was that D16 group by the time we rallied the troops here on DSF and we got the whole thing for peanuts? D16 is pretty great. I don't really use Redopter or the Reverb. But all the others are still my standard. The Reverb just doesn't sound as 3D as Valhalla to me.

I too GAS worse when the closest I get to making music is window shopping gear.

How does one even spend 60 dollars on a mop bucket?! That totally translates to a tank console! Looking at Mackie 24.8's now there are some to be had at a good price. To big to rack up though...

Yeah, I really don't know where I'd put a full on desk mixer... behind me? I mean it should be the centerpiece, but I just worked pretty hard setting up a desk with racks so that I could get my mpk49 front and center. If my keys are off the the right or left, I really tend just to pencil in notes, but when keys are in front of me, I tend to go to keys. I prefer played keys. I couldn't give that space away to the mixer. My setup now (in my mind) is like a U, with my comp and mpk at the base of the U, with turnable/djmixer laptop on one side, then a table with the bulk of my gear on the other side of the U... where is the mixer to go but in the open gap, behind me in the u... I don't know. I really actually would prefer a smaller rack mixer, but with a tun of groups/auxes. The rack mixers tend to have like 2 aux only.

0000

Hubby, I cannot get down with optical there, at all (I mean, I usually don't use compressors on my drums, but still). Compression can do so much to a drum sound. So so much more than just a programmable envelope. I don't disagree about volume balancing and enveloping properly, but knowing how to use a compressor on a drum hit/buss can radically change the sound.

Take a sound I just love, a pillowy Dilla kick. Mmmmm.... it just sounds so good in my head. That is a product of the ACP-88 comp/gate. Yes, proper sample selection, chopping, volume, enveloping, but the comp/gate is a further, and maybe ultimate shaper for the drum sound.

Maybe what he is saying is it is an advanced technique, and I think it is, well really it isn't, once you figure it out, it is totally straightforward. But learning as we do from experience, and now internet chatter, it just takes a while for it to click, for me, it took years, but, I don't know, really working a drum sound now for me REQUIRES the correct usage of compression. And again, compression doesn't reduce the absolute dynamic range of a sound, it increases it. Limiters reduce dynamic range.

Nah a compressor does reduce dynamic range. Not as much as a limiter tho

Nah, no it doesn't, not absolutely.

Lez say you've got a 10ms attack time before the volume reduction kicks in once the signal passes the threshold. That transient comes in, passes, volume reduction kicks in, lowers the volume of the signal rationally. The result is, transient is unaffected, body of sound is reduced in volume. This causes an increase in the absolute dynamic range of a sound. Now it may reduce the dynamic range in rms, but that is a different thing.

Only clippers or super quick ninja limiters actually reduce the absolute dynamic range of sound.