gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[Disco Nutter]

I reread the topic these days... pure gold!

Classic quotes like Macc talking about mixing at lower levels:

Besides which, what's wrong with turning your speakers up? It doesn't mean you have a small willy.

You're making dinner.

Plate = 0dB
Meat = drums
potatoes = bass
gravy = everything else


If you put half a plate (-6dB) of meat and half a plate (-6dB) of potatoes on the plate, when you pour the gravy on it will go over the sides and get all over the table.

Jason

[neljeffz]

Thanks a lot! That's definately going to help!

While you're here, can I have your view on that one:
http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=74831

thanks also for sharing some good info i learn something new

_________________
custom screen print | private labeling

[GELG]

I've got a question for my DJ's when recording a mix set. What levels should the A, B and Master be generally set up for a cleaner, more consistent sounding dubstep set when it reaches the final product?

Right now I have the A & B set to -2.0db with the Low freq set to -.03 and Med and Highs on -.35 and and decibel limiter around 475-275 (that last thing and its numbers might be named incorrectly actually).

Should I make any changes from this normal setup when DJing dubstep? Anything that would do a better job making the bass sound come out more consistent and overall more appropriate, considering dub tracks are so bass driven?

I guess Im just looking for some people to post the numbers they are using so I can make a decision about making any tweaks to my current setup.

Thanks, I really hope all that made sense.

[mooseforyebs]

quick simple gain structuring question

my drum kit as a whole adds up to around -8, yet it just feels weird having the levels set so low on each channel m(-20-30 for each seperate drum channel). I feel my levels are too low on each individual channel, and its kind of bothering...

[Littlefoot]

quick simple gain structuring question

my drum kit as a whole adds up to around -8, yet it just feels weird having the levels set so low on each channel m(-20-30 for each seperate drum channel). I feel my levels are too low on each individual channel, and its kind of bothering...

What's the question?

[wsft]

i'm still trying to get the clear view of headroom and all those things... this thread is a nice read, but i don't really understand the need of the headroom.. is it only needed when we gonna have our track mastered, that the engineer will have place to work on.. otherwise, it's not necessary?

i found this, and especially this quote make me think
http://www.audiomasterclass.com/arc.cfm ... ou-need-it

Setting the right amount of headroom is something that the engineer needs to think about, depending on the predictability of the sound source.

If it is completely predictably,you don't need any headroom at all. If it is fairly predictable (like a recording where you have had chance to rehearse), then you need a moderate amount of headroom, perhaps 10 dB. If the source is unpredictable, then even 20 dB of headroom isn't too much.

[mooseforyebs]

quick simple gain structuring question

my drum kit as a whole adds up to around -8, yet it just feels weird having the levels set so low on each channel m(-20-30 for each seperate drum channel). I feel my levels are too low on each individual channel, and its kind of bothering...

What's the question?

are my levels right?, does it sound strange to have a kick and snare at-25?, just seems to be a bit low to me.

[Littlefoot]

does it sound good/right?

[macc]

i'm still trying to get the clear view of headroom and all those things... this thread is a nice read, but i don't really understand the need of the headroom.. is it only needed when we gonna have our track mastered, that the engineer will have place to work on.. otherwise, it's not necessary?

Setting the right amount of headroom is something that the engineer needs to think about, depending on the predictability of the sound source.

If it is completely predictably,you don't need any headroom at all. If it is fairly predictable (like a recording where you have had chance to rehearse), then you need a moderate amount of headroom, perhaps 10 dB. If the source is unpredictable, then even 20 dB of headroom isn't too much.

This article is specifically discussing headroom during live recording, and is quite out of date.

The point it is trying to make is that a) you need to maximise the signal to noise ratio of the recording system and b) once it's clipped, there's no way back. So, it says, if you know that whatever you are recording is never going to exceed a certain level, you know you can turn up your input gain by that amount without having to worry about clipping.

However, the thing is that that point of view/practice is somewhat out of date in relation to digital recording. You don't need to run the risk of clipping your convertors because - as discussed in this thread - having a signal at -20dB when working at 24 bit resolution still leaves you way above the digital noise floor of -144dB (or the realistic noise floor of most convertors at about -105 or so), and still with greater than equivalent 16-bit resolution. You need to maximise the SNR of the analogue portion of the chain, yes, but you don't need to bang that into the convertors as close to clipping as possible 'to get the best resolution'.

Articles like this are quite valid when discussing analogue recording, but serve only to add to the confusion when it comes to digital. You don't need to run digital stuff hot, if anything (again, as discussed in here) it benefits from quite the opposite.

Analogue hot, digital cool .

[macc]

are my levels right?, does it sound strange to have a kick and snare at-25?, just seems to be a bit low to me.

If you've read the thread you'll know that - as Joe says - all that matters is whether it sounds good when you turn your speakers up.

EDIT: Actually I'll add to that and say that if your drums are peaking around -8 then you are doing just the right thing, in fact, I'd say you're pretty much spot on and will have lots of room for stuff

Feels weird doesn't it, not maxing the fuck out of everything! It's good though. It's like being able to carry your girlfriend's handbag. Less secure people might take the mickey but you can happily do it cos you've got no worries about your manhood

If you find that - once mixed down and and mastered/limited/blahblah for final loudness etc - your tunes feel less powerful than other tunes, work on increasing the POWER of your mix without necessarily increasing the peak.

This !!!! is the crux of this whole thread.

[lowpass]

are my levels right?, does it sound strange to have a kick and snare at-25?, just seems to be a bit low to me.

If you've read the thread you'll know that - as Joe says - all that matters is whether it sounds good when you turn your speakers up.

EDIT: Actually I'll add to that and say that if your drums are peaking around -8 then you are doing just the right thing, in fact, I'd say you're pretty much spot on and will have lots of room for stuff

Feels weird doesn't it, not maxing the fuck out of everything! It's good though. It's like being able to carry your girlfriend's handbag. Less secure people might take the mickey but you can happily do it cos you've got no worries about your manhood

If you find that - once mixed down and and mastered/limited/blahblah for final loudness etc - your tunes feel less powerful than other tunes, work on increasing the POWER of your mix without necessarily increasing the peak.

This !!!! is the crux of this whole thread.

The real question here though is when said girlfriend asks you to carry her handbag, how do you hold it?

I tend to carry it in the most arkward position I can so that it doesn't feel or look too comfortable (she takes the mick out of me for that) but it would just feel wrong having it round my shoulder ya know?

mixing at low levels in digital domain ftw, it's nice being able to leave the master fader at unity and see that everything just works

[wsft]

This article is specifically discussing headroom during live recording, and is quite out of date.

The point it is trying to make is that a) you need to maximise the signal to noise ratio of the recording system and b) once it's clipped, there's no way back. So, it says, if you know that whatever you are recording is never going to exceed a certain level, you know you can turn up your input gain by that amount without having to worry about clipping.

However, the thing is that that point of view/practice is somewhat out of date in relation to digital recording. You don't need to run the risk of clipping your convertors because - as discussed in this thread - having a signal at -20dB when working at 24 bit resolution still leaves you way above the digital noise floor of -144dB (or the realistic noise floor of most convertors at about -105 or so), and still with greater than equivalent 16-bit resolution. You need to maximise the SNR of the analogue portion of the chain, yes, but you don't need to bang that into the convertors as close to clipping as possible 'to get the best resolution'.

Articles like this are quite valid when discussing analogue recording, but serve only to add to the confusion when it comes to digital. You don't need to run digital stuff hot, if anything (again, as discussed in here) it benefits from quite the opposite.

Analogue hot, digital cool .

but the thing that still bugs me is if i really need this head room if i'm not going to send my track to mastering - but still it not clips, the mix sounds good, and it peaks at 0 db... in other words - everything seems to be good apart form lack of headroom..

maybe i don't understand everything right and i make wrong asspumtions..

[phrex]

safe
im sure this questions been asked before but when i bounce my tracks and play them on other speakers it sounds bare dull and muddy
how would i go about tackling this problem.
cheeeers

3 main things:

1 - practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice - don't expect to get there overnight.

2 - listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen - listen to as much music of ALL sorts on your speakers, in the same position you sit and at the same volume that you work at. Get to know your system. Do your best to listen at a constant level by adjusting your volume down for loud tracks, up for quiet tracks etc

3 - A/B your tracks against 'pro' tracks you like as you are working. Be sure to turn down the 'pro' track so that it sounds the same subjective level, or their track will just sound really loud and the extra volume will just confuse things. This is VERY important! It is the quality of the mix and not its level that you are trying to match at this stage. The level will come later.

Good luck

EDIT: As lowpass said it seems your speakers are bright and/or bass light, but if changing/buying gear isn't an option then get started on number 1 and number 2. And if you do upgrade, then get started on number 1 and number 2 as soon as you have

Little question to you as a pro:
does it make sense to premaster at a low volume? I used to premaster at a high volume, nowadays i somehow prefer to premaster at a low volume. does it make a difference? which one does make more sense?

i often got the problem that the Subbass takes effect at a quite high volume. (though, not on my monitors, but on every other system ) and that's the reason why I started now premastering it at a low level.

Hey, can you clarify what you mean by low level/volume, are you talking about running levels higher in your DAW or monitoring loud?

i'm talking bout monitoring loud.

my daws usually rather at a quite low volume (master @ approx -10db).
depending on the chune usualy the subbass-channel is the loudest (-4db to -5db). am i 'forcing' the subbass to come out heavily? is it the wrong way to push the subbass?

[macc]

but the thing that still bugs me is if i really need this head room if i'm not going to send my track to mastering - but still it not clips, the mix sounds good, and it peaks at 0 db... in other words - everything seems to be good apart form lack of headroom..

maybe i don't understand everything right and i make wrong asspumtions..

The principle remains the same; make a good clean mix, export your track with headroom at 24 bit and then do the final processing as a separate stage. The benefit of doing it as a separate process is having time away from the track.

Ideally, you take some time away from the track and come back to it a week later, then apply whatever processing you feel it needs if you can't fix something in the mix. Then use limiting to get the level you are looking for. You can of course apply this stuff in the mix on your master channel, but it's still the same thing - up until that very last stage you have headroom all the way.

Food analogy time! You only 'bake the cake' once the ingredients are all in place. You don't burn the ingredients and then mix them together and THEN bake the cake.

[macc]

i'm talking bout monitoring loud.

my daws usually rather at a quite low volume (master @ approx -10db).
depending on the chune usualy the subbass-channel is the loudest (-4db to -5db). am i 'forcing' the subbass to come out heavily? is it the wrong way to push the subbass?

I'm not sure I have followed you right... Hmmm.

If I have read all your posts correctly, it sounds like you are turning your bass up because you can't hear it (unless you turn your monitors way up). Then when you go somewhere else, there's too much bass. Is that right?

[wirez]

Quick mastering question...

I've lately been noticing slight distortion in my complete 'mastered' tunes, I think this may be because I'm limiting a little too hard.

Say for example I've bounced a mix to -6dB, done my EQing, compression etc. and it's time to limit... Should I be specifically pushing the limiter to give me around -10dB RMS, or just push the limiter until it all nicely peaks at -0.1dB? What I mean is, sometimes I keep pushing the limiter after everything is hitting -0.1dB peak, so that my RMS meter reads are -10dB.... Obviously I do use my ears and notice if there's any major distortion, but I'm losing trust in my monitors... Should I continue to push to -10dB RMS or just chill out when everything is peaking nicely?

[macc]

Quick mastering question...

I've lately been noticing slight distortion in my complete 'mastered' tunes, I think this may be because I'm limiting a little too hard.

Say for example I've bounced a mix to -6dB, done my EQing, compression etc. and it's time to limit... Should I be specifically pushing the limiter to give me around -10dB RMS, or just push the limiter until it all nicely peaks at -0.1dB? What I mean is, sometimes I keep pushing the limiter after everything is hitting -0.1dB peak, so that my RMS meter reads are -10dB.... Obviously I do use my ears and notice if there's any major distortion, but I'm losing trust in my monitors... Should I continue to push to -10dB RMS or just chill out when everything is peaking nicely?

Ahhh, the old level vs distortion chestnut...

The short answer is that each mix has its own limitations, or 'loudness potential' if you like. You shouldn't specifically be pushing for a given RMS as average RMS is largely meaningless when measured across a whole tune. It's very much dependent on the nature of the bass sound and bass rhythm/line/note denstiy/length in stuff like dubstep, as well as overall freq content having a large say on perceived loudness.

So, shooting for a specific RMS is a bit off the right track, because some (poor) mixes might struggle to get up there and distort, and other (good) mixes might go there with ease and still have room for more. Each case should be judged on its own merits. Listen for distortion, back off the level, lengthen release time a bit, and adjust other limiter parameters in order to get the best compromise between everything (quality, level, distortion, punch).

Or, of course, go back to the mix and fix the thing that's causing the trouble (probably: turn the sub down a bit). Which is always best

Sorry this is a bit brief... got to run!

[wirez]

Quick mastering question...

I've lately been noticing slight distortion in my complete 'mastered' tunes, I think this may be because I'm limiting a little too hard.

Say for example I've bounced a mix to -6dB, done my EQing, compression etc. and it's time to limit... Should I be specifically pushing the limiter to give me around -10dB RMS, or just push the limiter until it all nicely peaks at -0.1dB? What I mean is, sometimes I keep pushing the limiter after everything is hitting -0.1dB peak, so that my RMS meter reads are -10dB.... Obviously I do use my ears and notice if there's any major distortion, but I'm losing trust in my monitors... Should I continue to push to -10dB RMS or just chill out when everything is peaking nicely?

Ahhh, the old level vs distortion chestnut...

The short answer is that each mix has its own limitations, or 'loudness potential' if you like. You shouldn't specifically be pushing for a given RMS as average RMS is largely meaningless when measured across a whole tune. It's very much dependent on the nature of the bass sound and bass rhythm/line/note denstiy/length in stuff like dubstep, as well as overall freq content having a large say on perceived loudness.

So, shooting for a specific RMS is a bit off the right track, because some (poor) mixes might struggle to get up there and distort, and other (good) mixes might go there with ease and still have room for more. Each case should be judged on its own merits. Listen for distortion, back off the level, lengthen release time a bit, and adjust other limiter parameters in order to get the best compromise between everything (quality, level, distortion, punch).

Or, of course, go back to the mix and fix the thing that's causing the trouble (probably: turn the sub down a bit). Which is always best

Sorry this is a bit brief... got to run!

Nope, not too brief, perfect advice as always mate. Nice one!

[serox]

If you find that - once mixed down and and mastered/limited/blahblah for final loudness etc - your tunes feel less powerful than other tunes, work on increasing the POWER of your mix without necessarily increasing the peak.

This !!!! is the crux of this whole thread.

What is POWER exactly? you saying just sort your drums/bass out so they sound better without increasing dB?

[lowpass]

If you find that - once mixed down and and mastered/limited/blahblah for final loudness etc - your tunes feel less powerful than other tunes, work on increasing the POWER of your mix without necessarily increasing the peak.

This !!!! is the crux of this whole thread.

What is POWER exactly? you saying just sort your drums/bass out so they sound better without increasing dB?

I aint gonna try and put words in macc's mouth but....

anything can sound better loud, turning it up will always sound better and smashing the hell out of it on a limiter will appear to sound better (loudness) even though you might actually be making it sound weaker when a/b'ing with original mix at the same level.

I'd have a guess that the "power" is the energy you get from a track when it is mixed right, everything sitting comfortably in it's own frequency range, the dynamics have been controlled so that it is appearing louder (despite being the same volume) everything is gelling together and sounds amazing even when played back at a quiet level.

Mastering will get that overall volume up to a competitive level but it's down to you to get the "drive" + "power" in the track in the first place