gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[lowpass]

The answer is:

It depends.



Generally eqing in that way is a useful way of thinking, but don't hang on it IMO. In fact there's a few pages relating to this here;

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/masterin ... ering.html

In between all the wars, guff and bollocks, of course...

haha I do try to avoid GS like the plague but yeah every now and then you find a gem in amongst the garbage.

I just wanted to find out what the deal is here seen as I've gotten into the habbit of doing it this way (and I know by now how dangerous habbits can be when mixing)

Also a lot of the time my ears tend to naturally want to notch down the fundamental of a lot of instruments. (toms, acoustic guitar etc) I think this is just with lower instruments. Is this normal? Am I doing something wrong that's making me want to eq this way?

thanks again

[macc]

Not really, you hear the way you hear and that's that. Dropping the fundamental increases the relative strength of the upper portions ie harmonics, whereas other people might shelve the top up innit. Two sides of the same coin, or something like that

[lowpass]

Ah cool, I guess a lot of processes out there are designed to bring out the upper harmonics.

Didn't even think that's what I was doing here I was too focused on the fundamental to even think that I might be bringing it down to match the other harmonics.

Once again, thanks

[dblth1nk]

quick retard question I have been following a lot of the great advice on this thread. I got rid of the limiter on the master and have started eqing all the separate elements according to suggestions in this thread. This has resulted in a better mix but as a result of me doing things at a lower volume the end resulting track tends to be....well...quieter. Especially compared to a lot of the tracks I am listening to from other people on this board. So my question is at this point, how do I increase the overall volume of the track without clipping...I have raised the volume as a whole to about 0 but the track still seems much quieter compared to others. What can I do? What am I missing?

The track in question is in my signature.

Thanks again for all the great help on this board!

[lowpass]

quick retard question I have been following a lot of the great advice on this thread. I got rid of the limiter on the master and have started eqing all the separate elements according to suggestions in this thread. This has resulted in a better mix but as a result of me doing things at a lower volume the end resulting track tends to be....well...quieter. Especially compared to a lot of the tracks I am listening to from other people on this board. So my question is at this point, how do I increase the overall volume of the track without clipping...I have raised the volume as a whole to about 0 but the track still seems much quieter compared to others. What can I do? What am I missing?

The track in question is in my signature.

Thanks again for all the great help on this board!

Hi Getting the track to a level of volume that competitively matches other commercially produced tracks is something that is done at the mastering stage. Either send your tracks off to a mastering engineer who will sort this out for you (amongst other things) or read up on how to get a bit more volume yourself.

*hint* limiting will be used but not in a "lets smash this track into oblivion to bring up the rms to peak level" kind of way, also mixing without a limiter on is good practice, when the track is done you can think about adding one to tastefully bring up the level

[macc]

It's all in the thread already mate

[dblth1nk]

Thanks guys. Yah, I was doing some experimenting and comparison and have found that adding a bit of a limiter at this stage seems to be the key to getting the track up to peak volume.I know its not an exact template but is there a plugin/preset you guys usually reach for at this stage.

Thanks macc! I will be going back and reading over all the posts again, for a 3rd time Thanks for all the great advice!

[lowpass]

Thanks guys. Yah, I was doing some experimenting and comparison and have found that adding a bit of a limiter at this stage seems to be the key to getting the track up to peak volume.I know its not an exact template but is there a plugin/preset you guys usually reach for at this stage.

Thanks macc! I will be going back and reading over all the posts again, for a 3rd time Thanks for all the great advice!

There is one single mastering preset that will make every mix sound amazing and really loud at the same time. However due to it's ability to put mastering engineers out of business it is known only by a handful of people in the world and will remain that way.

On a serious note no there is no preset to do this, however I tend to aim to be limiting it by no more than maybe 4/5 db, everyone has their own methods though, find your own.

[dblth1nk]

Damn it! Tell me the secret....F****** I knew there was one

Thanks Lowpass! I am watching some videos on mastering with Ozone this weekend and have also been messing around with the limiters in audition...I will figure out something that works well.

Thanks again guys!

[lowpass]

rightttt, so here's the situation: -

I listen to a sound from my in ear headphones at a certain perceived volume.

I then listen to a sound from a 20000 watt rig placed a certain distance away so that I hear it at the same perceived volume. (I am angled + close enough to get the same distribution across the entire frequency band as the headphones)

Which is most damaging to my ears? are they going to damage them the same?

I ask because I tend to measure most things when doing live stuff by talking and hearing how loud it is compared to my voice. When at home and listening to my monitors (which are a few inches from my ears) I can hear my voice quite clearly but my ears get damaged very quickly when monitoring at (fairly reasonable levels) like this.

however when I am out working, I can't hear my voice over the system which is playing out at a fairly loud level, yet I could listen to this for much longer than my monitors without my ears hurting.

Does concentrating more on the music fatigue the ears more or is it just down to the spl? i.e. going to a gig and enjoying yourself compared to trying to listen and tell if that kick drum is half a db too loud?

[dubsaw]

rightttt, so here's the situation: -

I listen to a sound from my in ear headphones at a certain perceived volume.

I then listen to a sound from a 20000 watt rig placed a certain distance away so that I hear it at the same perceived volume. (I am angled + close enough to get the same distribution across the entire frequency band as the headphones)

Which is most damaging to my ears? are they going to damage them the same?

I ask because I tend to measure most things when doing live stuff by talking and hearing how loud it is compared to my voice. When at home and listening to my monitors (which are a few inches from my ears) I can hear my voice quite clearly but my ears get damaged very quickly when monitoring at (fairly reasonable levels) like this.

however when I am out working, I can't hear my voice over the system which is playing out at a fairly loud level, yet I could listen to this for much longer than my monitors without my ears hurting.

Does concentrating more on the music fatigue the ears more or is it just down to the spl? i.e. going to a gig and enjoying yourself compared to trying to listen and tell if that kick drum is half a db too loud?

Interesting question.....

I'll tell you one thing that does count towards ear fatigue.... thats distrotion, and harsh sounding speakers.

you could listen to a clean PA system a lot longer that is twice as big as a distorted one. Over cranked PA's really hurt your ears.

[macc]

Oioi dudes... just a quick note to apologise for not being so forthcoming of late. A skerbillion and ten things demanding attention, some good, some bad, some nonsense.

AHGHHGLL BEE BECKGH

[nitz]

I got a question to ask about mastering, its abit of a silly one but hear it goes.

Right most mastering engineers would prefer about 3db headroom for them to do their job. Now lets say your song only has like 2db ish or ever at them really high pecks 1db. So now the producers job would be to reduce this, it give the engineer the space available to cratf his art a pone the song. However, how would you go about reducing this level without too much of a hassle?

- You can have a limiter on the mix, which is possible the WORST thing you could do, plus making you look like a bit of a amateur.

- Turn the master fader down, for me i really never touch my master fader. It starts at 100 and will stay at 100 at all times, if am having to move it, i would feel that i have not a bad job on mix the tune.

- So the must sensible solution i can think of is... take every channel down about 1/2 db ?
now this is going to take a while, making muti 16 channel racks open.. can take some time. Nevertheless this the most sensible approach i can think of?

[lowpass]

I got a question to ask about mastering, its abit of a silly one but hear it goes.

Right most mastering engineers would prefer about 3db headroom for them to do their job. Now lets say your song only has like 2db ish or ever at them really high pecks 1db. So now the producers job would be to reduce this, it give the engineer the space available to cratf his art a pone the song. However, how would you go about reducing this level without too much of a hassle?

- You can have a limiter on the mix, which is possible the WORST thing you could do, plus making you look like a bit of a amateur.

- Turn the master fader down, for me i really never touch my master fader. It starts at 100 and will stay at 100 at all times, if am having to move it, i would feel that i have not a bad job on mix the tune.

- So the must sensible solution i can think of is... take every channel down about 1/2 db ?
now this is going to take a while, making muti 16 channel racks open.. can take some time. Nevertheless this the most sensible approach i can think of?

1. To kick off, what is headroom? is it the gap between the highest peak and 0dbfs? or something else?

2. Turning all the channels down by half a db does not sound the most sensible approach to me. I would advise you turning the master channel down instead, what's wrong with moving it? click, drag, release mouse? seems pretty quick.

[macc]

Out of all the deciBels in all the world, if you're one or two off by the time you get to the end, you're not doing too badly.

Thing is, eventually you realise you wouldn't even need to ask this question if all your channels just started a little bit quieter in the first place

I cannot describe the when this FINALLY clicked for me.

[nitz]

Out of all the deciBels in all the world, if you're one or two off by the time you get to the end, you're not doing too badly.

Thing is, eventually you realise you wouldn't even need to ask this question if all your channels just started a little bit quieter in the first place

I cannot describe the when this FINALLY clicked for me.

Well yeah i guess it's not as bad as it sounds, but i think i phased my paragraph in a very bad way, making me look abit stupid. Let me try state it again, my story; last Saturday, i was quite intoxicated and it was about 2.30am, knowing i make some of my best music and variation (crazy variations) at this time of the night i decided not to go sleep but instead to open reason. Now, on my default rack, i have all my channel levels set at 65, so everything i open up reason all channel level will be at 65, hence i don't get such a problem as this one. Its on a problem on this one song... as explained. However due to my intoxication ( ) i got a boosted and started moving all my channels up and saved it before i when sleep. Go up in the morning, opened the same song and thought this don't sound too good... Look up at my mixers... all levels have been changed, looked at the output.. and well just say it was not doing too good. I fixed it up abit, but no where need to what i should be like.

So barely in mind, its not the worst thing in the world to have a few more db, however if am going to pay for mastering, i would want that best job that the mastering engineer can do! Thus, meaning if he/she has a few more less db to work with, they can still do the job but maybe not to the best of their ability.

I got a question to ask about mastering, its abit of a silly one but hear it goes.

Right most mastering engineers would prefer about 3db headroom for them to do their job. Now lets say your song only has like 2db ish or ever at them really high pecks 1db. So now the producers job would be to reduce this, it give the engineer the space available to cratf his art a pone the song. However, how would you go about reducing this level without too much of a hassle?

- You can have a limiter on the mix, which is possible the WORST thing you could do, plus making you look like a bit of a amateur.

- Turn the master fader down, for me i really never touch my master fader. It starts at 100 and will stay at 100 at all times, if am having to move it, i would feel that i have not a bad job on mix the tune.

- So the must sensible solution i can think of is... take every channel down about 1/2 db ?
now this is going to take a while, making muti 16 channel racks open.. can take some time. Nevertheless this the most sensible approach i can think of?

1. To kick off, what is headroom? is it the gap between the highest peak and 0dbfs? or something else?

2. Turning all the channels down by half a db does not sound the most sensible approach to me. I would advise you turning the master channel down instead, what's wrong with moving it? click, drag, release mouse? seems pretty quick.

Because, if your having to move your master fader down, have you not done a good enough job on the mix then??

[lowpass]

Why? why would me turning my master down by say 3 db mean that I've got a shit mix?

[nitz]

Why? why would me turning my master down by say 3 db mean that I've got a shit mix?

because, you have certain levels too high, simple as that is it not?

[lowpass]

Why? why would me turning my master down by say 3 db mean that I've got a shit mix?

because, you have certain levels too high, simple as that is it not?

I guess if you have any plugins being run on the master bus then you could distort them on the way in but if that channel is clear then I would have thought you could just turn the overall level down before it reaches the output.

The advantages I can see to keeping your levels down on the rest of it is not overdriving plugins that can't handle it.

[nitz]

Why? why would me turning my master down by say 3 db mean that I've got a shit mix?

because, you have certain levels too high, simple as that is it not?

I guess if you have any plugins being run on the master bus then you could distort them on the way in but if that channel is clear then I would have thought you could just turn the overall level down before it reaches the output.

The advantages I can see to keeping your levels down on the rest of it is not overdriving plugins that can't handle it.

Fair point.

"I would have thought you could just turn the overall level down before it reaches the output."

As a reason user, my main output is my hardware unit (at the top where your final two channels go into) Now as my output for the mixer is straight going into that, my main output level would be the master fader.