EQing- making things sound too 2d??

[macc]

You're on the right track there, man

The easiest way to think about it is with an imaginary drum hit. The graph I posted above will be handy too.

Imagine this drum hit is so perfect that it is absolute silence before the hit, and absolutely every frequency contained in the hit starts from zero, going in a positive direction on the y axis, at exactly the same time. It sounds tight and sharp as a motherfucker, absolutely perfect. The greatest drum hit ever. You don't want to change a thing about it. But you decide you are going to eq it anyway, cos some dude on the internet said you always have to eq everything.

So you start digging with really tight boosts and cuts all over the place, where some internet frequency chart said you should cut/boost. Plus, you always have to find the bits you don't like and get rid of them totally, at least as far as that eq unit will let you, right? Best wang loads of bits out then. And you always have to boost 200Hz right, cos some other bloke said so.

Right, now you have a perfect drum hit, eq'd to.... well, eq'd. But think about the relative timing (correctly; phase) of all those little sine waves that made up the original hit. They all used to start on the 'B' of the BANG. Now you have shuffled them all about. You did a really tight boost at 1kHz, and whereas before they were pretty much in line together, now 900Hz and 1kHz are somewhat out of sync, and similarly for 1kHz and 1.1kHz, and further above/below. They were coherent before * , now they are not. Before you had a race where everyone started at exactly the same time, now they are in effect starting at different times. More accurately, they are starting from different places. To put it another way, you have smeared things in time. And that's the last thing you want for a drum hit.


[for the geeks]I know this isn't quite accurate BTW - it is just a slightly easier way to understand it. Things aren't exactly delayed in time in this way. They start at the same time as they did, but at different points in their wavecycle. The only difference between a time shift and a phase shift is that one needs a reference/origin point in order to assess phase shift. The effect is basically the same though, that some frequencies are now starting part-way through their wave cycle, some are heading downwards from zero, some are as they were, etc etc etc[/geeks]


* though due to their different periods/wavelengths they would drift in and out of sync, for the pedantic

[Assassin]

That's alot of good information. Basically alot of us should be Eqing alot less. I know I've been guilty of mad eqing and I get the phase cancellation. Cheers macc.

[Blue Patterns]

macc is back!

[JFK]

Basically alot of us should be Eqing alot less.

Yes mate. 1,000,000% agree.

[nitz]

Well this was a nice thread to read...

[jobbanaught]

You're on the right track there, man

The easiest way to think about it is with an imaginary drum hit. The graph I posted above will be handy too.

Imagine this drum hit is so perfect that it is absolute silence before the hit, and absolutely every frequency contained in the hit starts from zero, going in a positive direction on the y axis, at exactly the same time. It sounds tight and sharp as a motherfucker, absolutely perfect. The greatest drum hit ever. You don't want to change a thing about it. But you decide you are going to eq it anyway, cos some dude on the internet said you always have to eq everything.

So you start digging with really tight boosts and cuts all over the place, where some internet frequency chart said you should cut/boost. Plus, you always have to find the bits you don't like and get rid of them totally, at least as far as that eq unit will let you, right? Best wang loads of bits out then. And you always have to boost 200Hz right, cos some other bloke said so.

Right, now you have a perfect drum hit, eq'd to.... well, eq'd. But think about the relative timing (correctly; phase) of all those little sine waves that made up the original hit. They all used to start on the 'B' of the BANG. Now you have shuffled them all about. You did a really tight boost at 1kHz, and whereas before they were pretty much in line together, now 900Hz and 1kHz are somewhat out of sync, and similarly for 1kHz and 1.1kHz, and further above/below. They were coherent before * , now they are not. Before you had a race where everyone started at exactly the same time, now they are in effect starting at different times. More accurately, they are starting from different places. To put it another way, you have smeared things in time. And that's the last thing you want for a drum hit.


[for the geeks]I know this isn't quite accurate BTW - it is just a slightly easier way to understand it. Things aren't exactly delayed in time in this way. They start at the same time as they did, but at different points in their wavecycle. The only difference between a time shift and a phase shift is that one needs a reference/origin point in order to assess phase shift. The effect is basically the same though, that some frequencies are now starting part-way through their wave cycle, some are heading downwards from zero, some are as they were, etc etc etc[/geeks]


* though due to their different periods/wavelengths they would drift in and out of sync, for the pedantic

Thanks for sharing Macc. Its first time i think i got my head (atleast halfway) around the "eqing causes sound degredation" thing


And to the OP, its good to try and learn a bit about the nature of the different frequency bands. My experience is that some are really sensitive to cutting, like 300-500 Hz and 1500-3000 Hz. Lots of cuts there make things sound hollow or 2d.I think it has to do with how frequencies occur in nature, and which bands are important to your ear and your brain. If you cut those, sounds loose there natural feel.

[setspeed]

@Macc so in theory, if you have an EQ that is just doing one boost at Xhz, the rest of the signal should pass through more or less cleanly, and only the phase around Xhz should be affected?

[narcissus]

yeah good post macc, very clear... and for most producers who download samples from the internet and buy sample CDs, the samples are possibly already EQ'd to sound perfect (aka the way drums sound on commercial records) so EQ'ing them a lot (or even at all) is 'ruining' them.

[macc]

@Macc so in theory, if you have an EQ that is just doing one boost at Xhz, the rest of the signal should pass through more or less cleanly, and only the phase around Xhz should be affected?

Depends on the tightness of the boost/cut - see the graph in my earlier post

But it's not necessarily the amount of shift that matters so much as the severity of it, when comparing adjacent (and formerly coherent) areas of the spectrum.

Hope that makes sesne.

Or even, sense.

[komanderkin]

here's an interesting video about eqs. first four and a half minutes in perticular, but the rest is interesting too.

[macc]

A lot of stuff they say in that video is grossly mistaken and flat wrong, the rest is basic stuff they should know.

The whole part around 5:50 to 7 mins. It's embarrassing tbh. 'Based on impulse responses so there's no way you can get this', 'cheap algorthms'... man.

All filters ring FFS.

[komanderkin]

well it did seem to me like they're over exaggerating a little, but the part in which he shows how he cleans a kick sequence, then eqs it, and then he has to clean it up again, is very helpful.

but yeah, 'cheap algorithm' is a funny term. here's another thing i found. it's cool:
http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/ ... fact-myth/

[Sharmaji]

awwww... sad to have missed the real rise and fall of this coversation.

yes, most young producers & engineers struggle w/ eq, myself included back in those halcyon days. you feel like you should do SOMETHING to the sound, you just don't know what, you don't understand compression and EQ is easier to reach for. done.

a tip i've been giving out that's seemed to help some folks recently: go to stillwellaudio.com and download the free vibe EQ.

and just use that as your eq for a week.

no graphs, no 8-point bell curves, and no need to worry about bandaxall jargon, etc, etc. see how it makes your mixes sound by using a tool that's limited in scope, but just sounds better.

aside from the phsyics of phase shift, which is always fun (and an EXTREMELY powerful tool for effecting sound-- the inherent change in freq. response across time/space is what's great about having 3 mics on a drumkit), one good point that was made was to cut the fundamental of a sound a bit in order to smooth it out-- in doing so, you automatically boost the harmonics and can make it sound 'brighter.'

so: vibe EQ. use your ears. rock the fuck out.

[jaydot]

So there's such a thing as over EQing. :s I know it would make my tracks sound better but I wouldn't want to overdo it.

[macc]

one good point that was made was to cut the fundamental of a sound a bit in order to smooth it out-- in doing so, you automatically boost the harmonics and can make it sound 'brighter.

[nowaysj]

no, "phase" describes an aspect of sound waves that you're not dealing with when it comes to EQ.

In the nicest possible way, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

In the nicest possible way, thank you.

[grooki]

This whole thread wins.

Great to know more about eq and how it works. Over time I have used eq less and less, but I still slap off the lows (complete minus!), which is obvisoulsy something I shouldn't do with reckless abandon. The same with compressors, too...

one good point that was made was to cut the fundamental of a sound a bit in order to smooth it out-- in doing so, you automatically boost the harmonics and can make it sound 'brighter.

And this is a fascinating point, definitely gonna try this one out!

Awesome thread!

[serox]

Does anyone know what i mean by this?

I'll have a nice pad or synth, eq it to make it fit into the mix better. Then it sort of looses its texture and sounds a bit tacky, especially with big chords and strings.

Am i just not very good at eqing (lol be honest)? Is there a certain way to deal with this at all??

EQ'ing is over done now days in nearly all genres!

Music has lost so much feeling becuase people spend days EQ'ing and cleaning things up using computers I think.

I do not really EQing much with my tunes. Instead I try to pick sounds and the right octave that will fit in with my tune!

Dubstep often has quite a bit of Reverb so EQing the unwanted frequencies here will help clear the mix up.

[-dubson-]

Glad i made this thread! ALOT of real good talk in here, big up Macc.

That point on harmonics really is interesting, i need to experiment..

[atnytelounj]

never ever question macc, it's like arguing with Stephen fry. You'll not only get destroyed in argument but you'll look a tit.

Think you need to sig that Macc.

Unless you dont want to or something, just do what you want man. Dont want to impose my opinion on you or anything...

LOL