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But how much power do they actually have? Yes they have to take a few hits with some of their policies, but Conservatives are the ruling majority. Even if every Lib Dem voted against the increase they would still be out voted and would just cause unneccessary friction between the coalition. Which could lead to the conservaties forming a break-a-way government or something leaving them with nothing.

Yes i agree that if they truely believed in scrapping tuition fees (which i dont think is plausable anyway) then they should stick to that. But this is a Tories idea its not like the Lib Dems actually came up with the idea.



Edit: If people really cared about this stuff they wouldnt have voted Conservative at the elections. But as usual most people only look as far as the end of their nose. Then try and blame everybody else down the line.

If anything I hope this serves to illustrate the reality of the situation to many people.

The police were quite happy to batter a few kids to protect their pay masters. Now Cameron is spouting nonsense about using the 'full force of the law', where was the law when the theiving parasites in white hall were stealing from us?

i haven't been watching much tv but have the BBC been on damage control?

this is protesting that can't be so easily ignored

j-one wrote:What's the point in there being a coalition at all if the Lib Dems are just going to bend over and spread their arse cheeks for Tory policies every fucking time? It's a joke... what's worse is not the fact they've fucked things for themselves but that they've destroyed any hope or confidence that people's votes actually matter/can change things.

This. I also foolishly voted Lib Dem in the hope that it might make a difference, but have ended up unwittingly voting in what looks set to be the most draconian government for decades.

Had the Lib Dems chosen not to go into coalition with the Tories, we would have had a minority government that could not have pushed these (and many other changes) through with such ease, and a second election would have been required fairly quickly to sort out the mess.

By betraying their core voters the Lib Dem leadership has committed party suicide in exchange for personal power. Clegg and Cable have shown themselves to have no integrity, and re-inforced the previous suspicions that whatever the party, NO-ONE gets within touching distance of high political office without being corrupt, bent, untrustworthy and self-serving.

As far as the protesters go they have my full support. The fact is that peaceful protests get the attention of no-one, and scirmishes like this with damage to symbolic property and violence against the police (hopefully not resulting in any deaths or serious injuries) are the only way to get the media and facetwitterers' attention. It's notable that Britain's most widely circulated free publication, the Metro did not carry a single mention of yesterday's protests, just an article on how the MPs had been due to vote on the fees issue.

@LA_Boxers - Amen

cogidubnus wrote:the Metro did not carry a single mention of yesterday's protests, just an article on how the MPs had been due to vote on the fees issue.

Maybe this was the early edition?? As the vote wasnt exactly late in the day.

Pretty sure the copy I saw had something about the prostests/violence.

More people voted for the conservatives than any other individual party......maybe start by looking at these people?

Got smacked around by the coppers yesterday. Bled so much that my right eye got blinded. Managed to avoid being arrested and legged it down to Trafalgar Square in time to see the bonfires go up around the christmas tree after they took me out for ambulance treatment. Mental day.

LA_Boxers wrote:Do you think the Lib Dems would have actually put tuitions fees up if they had got soley into power??? No.

Yes what has happened is against their monifesto and obviously that is going to upset alot of people. However this is a Conservative decision. Nobody is really saying anything against them and alot more people voted for them that the Lib Dems. People are just looking for scapegoats, how many of the people who are complaining about Nick Clegg actually voted for him? If they had of done then none of this would be happening.

As said before, this kinda shit was expected from the conservatives from day 1. People voted for lib dems on the promise that they wouldnt increase tuition fees, which they have completely reneged on.
The lib dems hold a lot of power in government at the minute due to their vote having a huge potential swing. The conservatives NEED Lib dem backing to pass their bills through.

LA_Boxers wrote: Edit: If people really cared about this stuff they wouldnt have voted Conservative at the elections. But as usual most people only look as far as the end of their nose. Then try and blame everybody else down the line.

MOST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY DID NOT VOTE CONSERVATIVE. THAT'S WHY THERE IS A COALITION.
Get your facts straight.

hugh wrote:

LA_Boxers wrote: Edit: If people really cared about this stuff they wouldnt have voted Conservative at the elections. But as usual most people only look as far as the end of their nose. Then try and blame everybody else down the line.

MOST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY DID NOT VOTE CONSERVATIVE. THAT'S WHY THERE IS A COALITION.
Get your facts straight.

More people voted for them than any other individual party.

Edit:- Also i was making a generalisation that most people only care about things when it is here and now, not that most people voted for them (even though they received the most votes)....as with the tuition fees. If people had cared enough at the time of voting, then more people would have voted Lib Dems.

hugh wrote:

LA_Boxers wrote: Edit: If people really cared about this stuff they wouldnt have voted Conservative at the elections. But as usual most people only look as far as the end of their nose. Then try and blame everybody else down the line.

MOST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY DID NOT VOTE CONSERVATIVE. THAT'S WHY THERE IS A COALITION.
Get your facts straight.

There was a 65% voter turnout and 35.1% of those voted Conservative (source Wikipedia).

Therefore 22.8%, just over 1 in 5, of the eligible electoral population voted Tory. To me, that's a minority government.

LA_Boxers wrote:

hugh wrote:

LA_Boxers wrote: Edit: If people really cared about this stuff they wouldnt have voted Conservative at the elections. But as usual most people only look as far as the end of their nose. Then try and blame everybody else down the line.

MOST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY DID NOT VOTE CONSERVATIVE. THAT'S WHY THERE IS A COALITION.
Get your facts straight.

More people voted for them than any other individual party.

Edit:- Also i was making a generalisation that most people only care about things when it is here and now, not that most people voted for them (even though they received the most votes)....as with the tuition fees. If people had cared enough at the time of voting, then more people would have voted Lib Dems.

Now you are just making random assumptions, why would more people have voted Lib Dems? If we are taking voter apathy into account, then it would be far more safe to assume these people were happy with things the way they were rather than wanting a change. Chances are the majority of apathetic non-voters would have stuck with Labour.
Also you are completely missing the point on the significance of the coalition and how important the Lib Dems are to passing bills like this that simply would not get through without strong Lib Dem backing. It just wouldn't happen.

But to be honest, if youre going to uni and getting a qualification then you should be getting a high paid job, almost straight away, and therefore you should be able to easily pay your debts. if youre going to not get a decent job or study something fucking useless so you can just get trashed everynight then youre obviously not going to pay back your debt, so if these debts dont get paid back theres only one thing to do...up the tuition fees so that useless wankers dont go to uni for the sake of partying and wasting a few years of your life, leaving only the dedicated people who actually make use of their uni experience who will inveitably pay off thier debt once they start earning the big monies. chances are, if youre complaining, youre going to uni for no reason or you dont see your uni education giving you a good job...so why bother going?

Mortal wrote:But to be honest, if youre going to uni and getting a qualification then you should be getting a high paid job, almost straight away, and therefore you should be able to easily pay your debts. if youre going to not get a decent job or study something fucking useless so you can just get trashed everynight then youre obviously not going to pay back your debt, so if these debts dont get paid back theres only one thing to do...up the tuition fees so that useless wankers dont go to uni for the sake of partying and wasting a few years of your life, leaving only the dedicated people who actually make use of their uni experience who will inveitably pay off thier debt once they start earning the big monies. chances are, if youre complaining, youre going to uni for no reason or you dont see your uni education giving you a good job...so why bother going?

Sadly not a reality for many students. I'm doing a placement year hoping my experience will at least get me a job in my chosen field.

The problem is there isn't much in the way of an alternative to university except the usual trade jobs or dead end office stuff.

Degrees have lost their value as every tom, dick and harry now has one and many universities are just plain shit.

And now degree's are a pre-requsit for many jobs almost like having gcse's/a-levels

Mortal wrote:But to be honest, if youre going to uni and getting a qualification then you should be getting a high paid job, almost straight away, and therefore you should be able to easily pay your debts. if youre going to not get a decent job or study something fucking useless so you can just get trashed everynight then youre obviously not going to pay back your debt, so if these debts dont get paid back theres only one thing to do...up the tuition fees so that useless wankers dont go to uni for the sake of partying and wasting a few years of your life, leaving only the dedicated people who actually make use of their uni experience who will inveitably pay off thier debt once they start earning the big monies. chances are, if youre complaining, youre going to uni for no reason or you dont see your uni education giving you a good job...so why bother going?

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.
1 - This bill makes Education a privelege to those who can afford it
2 - This bill makes poorer people who may have been encouraged to go to uni now really have to think twice about whether they want to commit
3 - This bill discriminates against the poor and encourages the middle and upper classes - it increases the educational divide and eventually this will have an even greater impact on the poverty divide.
4 - Regarding your point - you assume every single student is doing a trashy good for nothing course and that every single student who qualifies from university is just going to "fall" into a good job. This depends on the type of career you want to pursue and whether the type of career you want to pursue generally has high earnings. For example, I am a year 2 Pharmaceutical Chemistry student - I have a fuck ton of work and am in Uni all the time. When I leave uni I want to get into either genetic research of drug action research. Neither of these career paths will have a particularly high payout.

If the problem was that too many people were going to universities and studying "mickey mouse" courses, then the solution lied with the Government in finding a way to encourage these youngsters into perhaps choosing a wiser career path. It's simply not fair to take a cack-handed swipe at the issue by trying to put poorer people off going to university.
Anyway, the lack of liberal thinking on this board is starting to piss me off tbh. It's almost like reading the daily mail.

mr hyde wrote:They had the big idea that everyone goes to university and changed all the polytechnics and colleges to university status making it easy enough for anyone to get in.

3 years of 4hr a week courses and long holidays, with your parents paying your accommodation and government giving you a mostly living cost loan you don't have to think about for years and loads of people jumped on it.

Somehow seemed a surprise to government this happened and that taxpayers couldn't afford to pay for everyone in the country to go to uni and that degrees weren't worth what they used to be and now have the situation that it'll have to be ££ that determines if you do or not.

Why hasn't anyone suggested making it much harder to get into University and courses being equivalent hours to employment, that'll soon put the numbers of students down and just leave the most deserving and hard working to still go and get more valued qualifications regardless of ££.

You can still get loans for going to Polys and colleges. Generally this point has nothing to do with tuition fees, and entirely to do with our culture.

hugh wrote:

Mortal wrote:But to be honest, if youre going to uni and getting a qualification then you should be getting a high paid job, almost straight away, and therefore you should be able to easily pay your debts. if youre going to not get a decent job or study something fucking useless so you can just get trashed everynight then youre obviously not going to pay back your debt, so if these debts dont get paid back theres only one thing to do...up the tuition fees so that useless wankers dont go to uni for the sake of partying and wasting a few years of your life, leaving only the dedicated people who actually make use of their uni experience who will inveitably pay off thier debt once they start earning the big monies. chances are, if youre complaining, youre going to uni for no reason or you dont see your uni education giving you a good job...so why bother going?

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.
1 - This bill makes Education a privelege to those who can afford it
2 - This bill makes poorer people who may have been encouraged to go to uni now really have to think twice about whether they want to commit
3 - This bill discriminates against the poor and encourages the middle and upper classes - it increases the educational divide and eventually this will have an even greater impact on the poverty divide.
4 - Regarding your point - you assume every single student is doing a trashy good for nothing course and that every single student who qualifies from university is just going to "fall" into a good job. This depends on the type of career you want to pursue and whether the type of career you want to pursue generally has high earnings. For example, I am a year 2 Pharmaceutical Chemistry student - I have a fuck ton of work and am in Uni all the time. When I leave uni I want to get into either genetic research of drug action research. Neither of these career paths will have a particularly high payout.

If the problem was that too many people were going to universities and studying "mickey mouse" courses, then the solution lied with the Government in finding a way to encourage these youngsters into perhaps choosing a wiser career path. It's simply not fair to take a cack-handed swipe at the issue by trying to put poorer people off going to university.
Anyway, the lack of liberal thinking on this board is starting to piss me off tbh. It's almost like reading the daily mail.

Right, well first of all it's not discriminating at all to poorer people, thats like saying car insurance is discriminating against poorer people, but its not. the fact is, its put higher on young drivers for a reason...and as such is discourages a lot of drivers from buying a cheap car, insuring it and consequently driving it to their death at 95mph, the same can be applied to university.
and im in now way implying that people are going to 'fall' into a good job, but if their qualifications ultimately amount to a job that does not even need such qualifications, then they arent exactly helping. i know its not easy to get a job from uni, but its not easy to get a job from anywhere! Also if youre two career paths arent going to have a particularly high payout, why would you waste years of your life and money to only come out with debt and a low pay job, when you could simply spend those years gaining money and working your way up? Basically, people should only be going to university if theyre aiming for a particular high pay job, that requires a particular degree, its as simple as that. anyone who is going 'for a laugh' or to ultimately end up in a job where they wont even be able to pay off the debt theyve got themselves into simply shouldnt be allowed to go.

and if you want a debate, expect there to be different opinions, i have mine and you have yours. Dont come across as a pretentious arsehole

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.

saying 'i disagree' works just as well...so maybe you 'get a clue' before coming into this thread and slandering everything as bullshit and believeing that your views are the only ones that exist. try harder if you want to get through to me, dont get all self-righteous.

Mortal wrote:

hugh wrote:

Mortal wrote:But to be honest, if youre going to uni and getting a qualification then you should be getting a high paid job, almost straight away, and therefore you should be able to easily pay your debts. if youre going to not get a decent job or study something fucking useless so you can just get trashed everynight then youre obviously not going to pay back your debt, so if these debts dont get paid back theres only one thing to do...up the tuition fees so that useless wankers dont go to uni for the sake of partying and wasting a few years of your life, leaving only the dedicated people who actually make use of their uni experience who will inveitably pay off thier debt once they start earning the big monies. chances are, if youre complaining, youre going to uni for no reason or you dont see your uni education giving you a good job...so why bother going?

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.
1 - This bill makes Education a privelege to those who can afford it
2 - This bill makes poorer people who may have been encouraged to go to uni now really have to think twice about whether they want to commit
3 - This bill discriminates against the poor and encourages the middle and upper classes - it increases the educational divide and eventually this will have an even greater impact on the poverty divide.
4 - Regarding your point - you assume every single student is doing a trashy good for nothing course and that every single student who qualifies from university is just going to "fall" into a good job. This depends on the type of career you want to pursue and whether the type of career you want to pursue generally has high earnings. For example, I am a year 2 Pharmaceutical Chemistry student - I have a fuck ton of work and am in Uni all the time. When I leave uni I want to get into either genetic research of drug action research. Neither of these career paths will have a particularly high payout.

If the problem was that too many people were going to universities and studying "mickey mouse" courses, then the solution lied with the Government in finding a way to encourage these youngsters into perhaps choosing a wiser career path. It's simply not fair to take a cack-handed swipe at the issue by trying to put poorer people off going to university.
Anyway, the lack of liberal thinking on this board is starting to piss me off tbh. It's almost like reading the daily mail.

Right, well first of all it's not discriminating at all to poorer people, thats like saying car insurance is discriminating against poorer people, but its not. the fact is, its put higher on young drivers for a reason...and as such is discourages a lot of drivers from buying a cheap car, insuring it and consequently driving it to their death at 95mph, the same can be applied to university.
and im in now way implying that people are going to 'fall' into a good job, but if their qualifications ultimately amount to a job that does not even need such qualifications, then they arent exactly helping. i know its not easy to get a job from uni, but its not easy to get a job from anywhere! Also if youre two career paths arent going to have a particularly high payout, why would you waste years of your life and money to only come out with debt and a low pay job, when you could simply spend those years gaining money and working your way up? Basically, people should only be going to university if theyre aiming for a particular high pay job, that requires a particular degree, its as simple as that. anyone who is going 'for a laugh' or to ultimately end up in a job where they wont even be able to pay off the debt theyve got themselves into simply shouldnt be allowed to go.

and if you want a debate, expect there to be different opinions, i have mine and you have yours. Dont come across as a pretentious arsehole

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.

saying 'i disagree' works just as well...so maybe you 'get a clue' before coming into this thread and slandering everything as bullshit and believeing that your views are the only ones that exist. try harder if you want to get through to me, dont get all self-righteous.

All you care about is money eh??

How about wanting to learn? being interested in a subject?

I'm going to study Music Technology - am i fuck gonna end up witha high paying job, but i'd rather earn less doing what I love not earn shit loads at an investment bank!