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deadly habit wrote:Yea, but what I'm saying is people go into an industry with zero experience in it expecting to be able to make a full time living. Things happen in steps not immediately, it's just foolish to not have any backup plans and also pretty unrealistic. There are loads of people who "go all in" and get nowhere. There is a difference between scaling back and building up a set of attainable goals toward the bigger picture and being unrealistic with no plan other than to be a full time musician.

Again, with the benefit of many years' experience and observation: there are some folks who think that if you just want something badly enough and deny yourself everything else that comes along that you somehow "deserve" it more and will eventually prevail... these same folks hit the wall at some point down the road and almost never blame themselves, assigning responsibility to 'the industry' or 'the scene' or something else and often over-react bigtime - giving up music entirely to become a cabinetmaker in the backwoods (no joke, actually knew someone that did that. He was talented but felt the world owed him something. Life owes you nothing.)

deadly habit wrote:

Attila wrote:

deadly habit wrote:

Attila wrote:If you have faith in yourself as a producer, I say go for it. Backups and plan b's are for people that lack the confidence and ability to realize their plan a.

More like people who are sensible, or advice from people who have been there done that.
The entertainment industries are highly competitive and cutthroat. Electronic music especially pays little to nil when it comes to releases, unless you're selling beats to pop acts, or hip hop guys regularly don't expect to make a living on that alone. Performance you'll have to be in the top acts and constantly touring to be able to make and ask enough to make a living from it, and even then it hinges on consistently being it that top % of acts that are in demand.
For example just a couple of physical releases i've had, shift vinyl (and digital) they never paid me a penny in spite of repeated attempts to get info.
fabric live cd, made some money from it, but they went into administration owing me a decent amount during that period and i just received a 35 pence check in the mail which is my settlement after all is said and done.
We won't even get into digital labels.
You constantly have to be on your hustle be it giving lessons, recordings bands, coming up with other outlets to make money using your skills.
Even working in studios, you may have a degree or have spent time in school, but you're still going to start off as an intern getting coffee, and even getting that position is highly competitive.
Working your ass off is not a guarantee of success in any entertainment industry.

If you're making worthwhile music, then yeah it's pretty well guaranteed you'll be able to find an audience big enough to support yourself. And again, if you're expecting to make any money off releases you're at best delusional. If you're not willing to dedicate your life to gigging then clearly you won't make a living off of your own material. It's about being sensible in regards to how the industry runs, not in regard to your work ethic or dedication. Not going all in virtually guarantees failure. No one becomes successful after saying "whoa there, I need to scale back a little bit and focus on things unrelated to my goals."

Yea, but what I'm saying is people go into an industry with zero experience in it expecting to be able to make a full time living. Things happen in steps not immediately, it's just foolish to not have any backup plans and also pretty unrealistic. There are loads of people who "go all in" and get nowhere. There is a difference between scaling back and building up a set of attainable goals toward the bigger picture and being unrealistic with no plan other than to be a full time musician.

Yeah I mean it definitely takes time and a clear focus, but a lot of people regard it as completely unattainable. The only way to go all in and not get anywhere is by quitting...and of course there's always the chance that someone's just not good at music, but I think it goes without saying this only applies to people who have the ability to produce compelling music. Going all in doesn't have conditions though in my mind. It's not moving to LA for a few years and not making a career then getting a day job. It's where pure passion and will meet.

However, if I die at 85, having produced 8 hours a day every day up to that moment without becoming successful, I give everyone the right to call bullshit on my philosophies haha

Attila wrote:

deadly habit wrote:

Attila wrote:

deadly habit wrote:

Attila wrote:If you have faith in yourself as a producer, I say go for it. Backups and plan b's are for people that lack the confidence and ability to realize their plan a.

More like people who are sensible, or advice from people who have been there done that.
The entertainment industries are highly competitive and cutthroat. Electronic music especially pays little to nil when it comes to releases, unless you're selling beats to pop acts, or hip hop guys regularly don't expect to make a living on that alone. Performance you'll have to be in the top acts and constantly touring to be able to make and ask enough to make a living from it, and even then it hinges on consistently being it that top % of acts that are in demand.
For example just a couple of physical releases i've had, shift vinyl (and digital) they never paid me a penny in spite of repeated attempts to get info.
fabric live cd, made some money from it, but they went into administration owing me a decent amount during that period and i just received a 35 pence check in the mail which is my settlement after all is said and done.
We won't even get into digital labels.
You constantly have to be on your hustle be it giving lessons, recordings bands, coming up with other outlets to make money using your skills.
Even working in studios, you may have a degree or have spent time in school, but you're still going to start off as an intern getting coffee, and even getting that position is highly competitive.
Working your ass off is not a guarantee of success in any entertainment industry.

If you're making worthwhile music, then yeah it's pretty well guaranteed you'll be able to find an audience big enough to support yourself. And again, if you're expecting to make any money off releases you're at best delusional. If you're not willing to dedicate your life to gigging then clearly you won't make a living off of your own material. It's about being sensible in regards to how the industry runs, not in regard to your work ethic or dedication. Not going all in virtually guarantees failure. No one becomes successful after saying "whoa there, I need to scale back a little bit and focus on things unrelated to my goals."

Yea, but what I'm saying is people go into an industry with zero experience in it expecting to be able to make a full time living. Things happen in steps not immediately, it's just foolish to not have any backup plans and also pretty unrealistic. There are loads of people who "go all in" and get nowhere. There is a difference between scaling back and building up a set of attainable goals toward the bigger picture and being unrealistic with no plan other than to be a full time musician.

Yeah I mean it definitely takes time and a clear focus, but a lot of people regard it as completely unattainable. The only way to go all in and not get anywhere is by quitting...and of course there's always the chance that someone's just not good at music, but I think it goes without saying this only applies to people who have the ability to produce compelling music. Going all in doesn't have conditions though in my mind. It's not moving to LA for a few years and not making a career then getting a day job. It's where pure passion and will meet.

However, if I die at 85, having produced 8 hours a day every day up to that moment without becoming successful, I give everyone the right to call bullshit on my philosophies haha

Believe me I have a couple buds who tried the whole LA thing, and NYC, guess where they are now? Right back here reformulating a plan, they haven't given up more like saw the folly of their ways.
I wouldn't say people regard it as unattainable, more like giving a dose of reality to kids who haven't had the formative time out in the real world. So many people go from high school to college/university essentially living in the world of academia and getting loans or support from their family, they come out ill equipped to know what it takes to make a living and how much of a struggle it is.
It's kind of like when you were a kid and said, " I want to be an astronaut!" How many astronauts do we have and how many came up with and followed the plan to get there of those who had the passion?

deadly habit wrote: Believe me I have a couple buds who tried the whole LA thing, and NYC, guess where they are now? Right back here reformulating a plan, they haven't given up more like saw the folly of their ways.
I wouldn't say people regard it as unattainable, more like giving a dose of reality to kids who haven't had the formative time out in the real world. So many people go from high school to college/university essentially living in the world of academia and getting loans or support from their family, they come out ill equipped to know what it takes to make a living and how much of a struggle it is.
It's kind of like when you were a kid and said, " I want to be an astronaut!" How many astronauts do we have and how many came up with and followed the plan to get there of those who had the passion?

But then I think it becomes a question of how honest is that passion if it doesn't motivate someone to follow through? I agree that a lot of people w/o any previous musical experience haphazardly begin hacking away at producing believing they'll be Avicii/Zedd/whoever in 6 months which likely won't be the case. What I'm saying is that someone can enter into this industry with an absolute brutal honesty about how things work, and if they choose to accept those circumstances and intelligently work with them, it's not unlikely that they could effectively see a fairly logical and linear progression in their career. But yeah I really want to emphasize working intelligently with clear goals.

I think I'm too tall to be an astronaut.

Like I said it comes down to being realistic and honest with yourself along with questioning your motivations.

I know a few peeps who were able to have a moderate amount of success (eg/getting songs signed regularly and headlining shows semi-regularly) while still pursuing a normal career. Granted their success banked a bit on luck and who they knew. To me that just seems like the more logical route to take. I feel like the notion of dropping everything and pursuing your music is a bit outdated in the modern music industry and the reality of the situation needs to be assessed more practically. From a production standpoint, if I wasn't supporting myself through a regular job I would be broke as hell right now and not even able to afford half the crap I use to make music..

So, in summary - go for it if it's in your heart, but have a fallback option in case it doesn't pan out.

Minus the fallback, because you can't know that it wouldn't pan out unless you pursue it til you die, especially if it's in your heart. I remember reading an article where this guy interview hundreds of people on their death bed, and virtually everyone of them had the same biggest regret-not pursuing what they had a passion for. When you're dying no ones going to care whether you supported yourself with a day job...accepting that your maximum potential will be to simply afford life until you're gone is disgusting. Hell, I don't even know my great great grandparent's names because they left no legacy to remember them by.

Attila wrote:Minus the fallback, because you can't know that it wouldn't pan out unless you pursue it til you die.

Yeah, but even so typing is a useful skill to pick up just in case.

You die a lot sooner when you can't afford food or a roof over your head, that and it's hard to work on electronic music when you have no electricity.

deadly habit wrote:and it's hard to work on electronic music when you have no electricity.

I got a couple of great samplers/sequencers that run on batteries you can steal from Walmart.

deadly habit wrote:and getting to that position isn't just something you up and decide one day.

you know actually-- there was a very clear moment for me in 2001 where i was like "i've done this all wrong." Now granted at that point i'd already been in a somewhat-successful band, recorded 2 cd's (cd's! jesus.), a bunch of 7"s, been signed to a label, been on MTV-- all of which left me pretty tired of being a drummer, but not tired of music at all. i went back, got my degree, got a good job and hated every bleeding second of it. so there was a point where I decided that the minute i made a cent more from music in a year than I did my day job, i'd quit and do music full-time....

and 3 years later, I got a gig offer big enough to let me take the plunge.

I can safely say that i never would have gotten there if I hadn't decided on a when-- not an "if"-- but a when. I had the cushion of a day job to let me find the things that i really wanted to do w/ music w/o having to have them be immediately successful, which was nice. I also wasn't playing full-time, and that definitely hinders your ability to collaborate on things with your soon-to-be-peers... and collaboration is KEY in any creative industry.

So I disagree. if you're gonna make the jump, maybe the best thing you can do is wake up and decide to do it.

and, you know-- be brutally honest with yourself and your peers, know where you stand, and get ready to fucking WORK. 8 hours a day? please. 16 hours a day. 20 hours a day. for years.

Attila wrote:I'm starting to feel like this forum has a legitimate phobia of success. Like "oh yeah, that only happens to super lucky people after they sell out. Not us underground producers who make real music". I've never heard from someone's who's been there say not to go for it. It's always a bitter, self-important half-asser that suggests it's impossible.

this.


Just work as hard as possible, make the right moves and you'll see results. The results may not be Grammy's but making a few quid out of your music isn't as hard as everyone likes to make it out to be. look at how many shit artists do it on a regular.

as long you're genuinely enjoying what you're doing, you have nothing to worry about. go for it.

I don't think I've seen anyone on this forum say its impossible. The people who maybe did say that probably have never done it.

I do see some advice from people that have done it saying that it is going to be hard work and you have to hustle.

mks wrote: I do see some advice from people that have done it saying that it is going to be hard work and you have to hustle.

yeah i agree with that 100% though, if anyone gets into music thinking it's an easier alternative to a 9 to 5 then they are sorely mistaken haha.

get into djing hip hop, or house, or top 40. find a couple of residencies. weekly income, and the pay is generally quite good. then use all of your free time to work on your own music.

wub wrote:So, in summary - go for it if it's in your heart, but have a fallback option in case it doesn't pan out.

Pretty much. And also take it in logical steps. i dont expect to be some big artist as I know now kind of what ittakes and sorta knew before. But ive still devoted every piece of my time to making music, my buds are really into music and my lifes here. Idk I cant not tell myself to make music as a hobby.. Its just too much to stop.even if by the end of everh track I finish doesnt turn out super awesome or the way I perfectly imagined. And yeah, shows would be important eventually.


Im also at it 16 hours a day already. For years is the keyword only been 4 months so far. But every new song is a new nois and its something you made that sounds good to your ears whoch is evn. Cooler. I know ill apways feel like this

And ps thanks for the advices and stories everyone! I just love to create so
Much. Theres no limits tO what I can learn and keep doing or creating because everything is a 'new' sound. I say everythings 'new' because there will be similarities at points in time.

Just go with the flow, I'm sure everyone has thought about full time music.

I personally would wait to a time where I thought I could confidently support myself enough to live to become just a musician and do just tune related things, like hosting nights and maybe starting a label. These are just all loose plans for the future if I can get round to it. Unfortunately, being realistic that shit takes time. Just keep what you're doing, work hard, put 110% effort into it and good things (theoretically) should come out at the end. Wait until you get your first proper release or whatever is what I'm trying to say, at least this is where I stand on things.

Sweet one

So, in summary - go for it if it's in your heart, but have a fallback option in case it doesn't pan out.

This is the advice my psychologist gave me. An investor would call this diversifying one's portfolio (to reduce risk). I decided to major in both music and computer science, with the assumption that there is demand for programmers. Music is risky financially, and some second choice would be risky in terms of self-satisfaction, and perserverence.

Is it possible for you to study music technology or music?

Does anybody have anything to say about getting into academia or plugin development?