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ultraspatial wrote:not necessarily. legalizing will more than likely increase the number of overall deaths because then everybody/more people will have access.

Examples?

of what ? countries that legalized drugs?

here's something regarding alcohol tho:


inb4 alcohol is more dangerous

I think the problem lies in lack of teaching more than anything. just saying all drugs are bad isnt enough, if anything that only increases a 15 year old's curiosity

legalization wise, its a pretty blunt way to put it but ive never understood why it's right to tell people what to use and what not to. Again, if there is enough information that's taught about it from a young age and the subsequent well-informed adult still wants to use a drug, what's wrong with that?

i think rehab facilities would also be a lot better if drugs become legal. all the parliamentary cokeheads gotta go somewhere good

ultraspatial wrote:of what ? countries that legalized drugs?

here's something regarding alcohol tho:


inb4 alcohol is more dangerous

Drug prohibtion related deaths aren't just deaths directly caused by the (mis)use of drugs, but also deaths caused by the gang related crime that is caused by the prohibition.

There's also a difference between death through own irresponsibility and death through a lack of information.

you're right about the gang related deaths
as for your second point, i find it irrelevant. plenty of people die because of alcohol or medicine consumption and there's loads of info available

kidshuffle wrote:

ultraspatial wrote:not necessarily. legalizing will more than likely increase the number of overall deaths because then everybody/more people will have access.

Examples?

Actually, Portugal decriminalised personal drug use and deaths have consistently gone down since 2001. The UN report on it even said it worked, that's why the media don't dare talk about it because it's evidence that prohibition doesn't do what it's supposed to. No-one goes to Portugal just to get fucked as well, even though the legal system is more liberal than Holland in that respect...

ultraspatial wrote:you're right about the gang related deaths
as for your second point, i find it irrelevant. plenty of people die because of alcohol or medicine consumption and there's loads of info available

There's a difference when it's because of your own doing ir because someone else's misinformation.

If someone is properly informed or had proper acces to information but was being an irresponsible jackass, that's one thing. But if someone was mislead or underinformed because of government enforced law, then there's a shared responsibility with the government in question for the person's death.

If you jump in a cage with a lion even though you know they're vicious predators, then you're stupid and there's not much people can do.

If you've been told through state-enforced misinformation that any furry animal can kill you, subsequently see your friends petting a kitten and notice they're fine, and then decide to have a little ruff and tumble with a lion, then the state is definitely partly responsible for what happens to you.

That's a complicated and weird analogy to just come to you.

fair enough. still unconvinced tho. not saying that drugs should be legal or not, i honestly don't care for the subject. but the number of deaths argument is pretty weak.
i mean, you'll just trade a few ods, which may not totally be the user's fault, for more ods done willingly. oh, and people will still bitch about how it's the state's fault

ultraspatial wrote:fair enough. still unconvinced tho. not saying that drugs should be legal or not, i honestly don't care for the subject. but the number of deaths argument is pretty weak.
i mean, you'll just trade a few ods, which may not totally be the user's fault, for more ods done willingly. oh, and people will still bitch about how it's the state's fault

It's not that certain if you look at Portugal, as I mentioned above. The number of recorded deaths dropped continuously between 2001-2006, then rose to pre-2001 levels with improved recording methods. However, since the rise occurred with improved recording methods, you could assume that pre-2001 deaths were under-recorded (source: http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/do ... 1621_1.pdf).

Here's some more detailed analyses of the benefits of Portugal's complete decriminalisation, which include lower HIV and other disease infection rates, less drug abuse cases (half, at some estimates), and a whole host of other things:

- http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decrim ... d-straight
- http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f ... epaper.pdf

fair. but there's a difference between decriminalizing personal usage of drugs and making them totally legal and available to the public. it's not like you can go to a shop and buy 3 g of coke. the process of obtaining them is still the same. also keep in mind that just because it worked in one country, doesn't necessarily mean it'll work just as fine in another. it'll probably go down better in super liberal countries, which maybe are already used to drugs being part of mainstream youth culture.

not to mention legalization raises a load of other issues, like on what basis should we legalize drugs? addiction rates? short and long term effects? should all drugs be legal, and if not, where will the line be drawn? will the state allow heroin to be sold? what about meth or krokodil ? will they have to be produced to a certain standard? and what about existing and legal, but prescription based shit like anti-depressants or codeine based cough syrup; should the state allow them to be freely sold to anyone? cause if restrictions are imposed, the black market will still be there to supply the demand, it'll probably just be more niche.
imo it's just not worth it atm, unless there's an urgent need for this, like to control drug cartels or gang related violence. just because a handful of people die due to misinformation is not a super strong argument, because it's still their fault and responsibility - they were willingly engaging in an activity that's harmful. not saying that it's the victim's fault, he/she should have proper information, but you can't say "oh it's the state's fault my kid died".

ultraspatial wrote:fair enough. still unconvinced tho. not saying that drugs should be legal or not, i honestly don't care for the subject. but the number of deaths argument is pretty weak.
i mean, you'll just trade a few ods, which may not totally be the user's fault, for more ods done willingly. oh, and people will still bitch about how it's the state's fault

Then we would be blaming the state for alcohol related deaths. Which we aren't.

alcohol consumption is been trivialized a long time ago. drugs are still a major issue/taboo. first deaths after legalization would cause a shitstorm, like the reports of "weed related" deaths or w/e in the states

Genevieve wrote:

ultraspatial wrote:fair enough. still unconvinced tho. not saying that drugs should be legal or not, i honestly don't care for the subject. but the number of deaths argument is pretty weak.
i mean, you'll just trade a few ods, which may not totally be the user's fault, for more ods done willingly. oh, and people will still bitch about how it's the state's fault

Then we would be blaming the state for alcohol related deaths. Which we aren't.

exactly. Once they become legal it becomes more personal liability than anything - you know exactly what it is, what it does, and how to do it...

i hope she died happy

i see, i sound like a dick. didn't mean to.