Dubstep Forum Co-operative Label

[auralassassin]

I can handle losing my cash due to failure, but losing it and still having to pay MORE for the finished copy of the product seems kinda sketchy to me.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that you should have to pay for a copy or two after already putting up a couple of thousand dollars to get it out.

I had a different structure in mind whereby a co-op's finances could be based on small inputs from broad base of subscribers so a known amount of money would be guaranteed ahead of the pressing process. But, unless the artist wants no compensation for making the track, the subscribers should not expect to get the record at 'cost' (cost meaning simply the cost of phyically producing and shipping the records).

I'd prefer we stop calling it a donation are start calling it an investment. There can't be a succesful NOT FOR PROFIT venture in the record industry. You would have to get producers who are willing to donate hot tracks that could otherwise get them money elsewhere, people who are willing to give large amounts of money with no possibility of a return on that investment, etc...

Don't get me wrong, I have no expectation of profit, but on the off chance that my investment triples in value, I expect a certain return on that investment... yea yea, back into the label...

So even if this sounds like a worthwhile venture, you are asking us to spend time, money, energy, connections and talents... and for what?

A warm feeling in my stomach to know that I lined the pockets of a producer and I not only didn't get time, money, energy, connections or anything like that... but then I can't even a compensated free record for all of that investment?

Let's call it what it is... CHARITY. I'm willing to invest in a record label, or even a one-off record pressing to see how it goes from there, but you are trippin if you think that people will seriously invest(there's that word again) any signifigant form of monetary resources with not even the possibility of a gain or return on that.

I mean, it sounds as though I'll be paying for the records, then paying for the records again... and since it's UK based, I'll be paying for the records 4-5 times over, because I'll also have to pay for shipping costs from the UK... I can just go through Hot Flush for that. I really like what you're saying though, CEDE... you should be able to get out at some point, should you want to get out...

I want to make sure that all our bases are covered here. People who try to pretend this has nothing to do with money simply aren't considering the real costs of running a label. Anyone who thinks this shouldn't be a money issue should start calling around and seeing how much it is to do a 2000 record run and include mastering, packaging, promotion, distribution, etc...

Part of that promotion includes showing those who invested that their money is being spent on what they intended... that might have to include some of the product. I know that if I took part in something like this it would be something I was very proud of. I'd want to take a copy of this and frame it on the wall or something. This is a really cool concept and maybe I'm overanalyzing and over-reacting... anyone who isn't is crazy, though.

[auralassassin]

one more thing... this should CERTAINLY be included on Beatport, Bleep, and any other download service, as well.

I totally am pro-download for this stuff.

[cede]

I can tell you with certainty, and also based on my own spreadsheets, doing a run of 1000 will cost at least two grand

this will factor in the mastering, printing and pressing costs.

The number will fluxuate a little bit depending upon where it is manufactured.

MPO does my pressings and Kompakt handles world wide distro for me, so I am unfamiliar with the plants in the UK.

but I imagine that mastering should be done at transition, and i am not sure what the plant would be - anyone?

[autonomic]

see there are already crossed-purposes operating here.

aa wants a regular business. others want a co-op. one is about growth, profit, etc. the other is not for profit and only needs to grow so much as its membership grows. frankly they can both survive just fine, but the latter involves less risk, more sustainability and little interest in expansion.

might be good to sort that out first. maybe two things are forming on this thread: a hypothetical regular label and a hypothetical member-run co-op.

[cede]

one more thing... this should CERTAINLY be included on Beatport, Bleep, and any other download service, as well.

I totally am pro-download for this stuff.

Typically with digital distribution they like you to have some sort of back catalog when they start selling your tracks. but given the growing popularity of the music, i imagine it could make things easier to get onto bleep all the sooner. Bleep tends to be a bit fickle with newer labels.

[elgato]

see there are already crossed-purposes operating here.

maybe two things are forming on this thread: a hypothetical regular label and a hypothetical member-run co-op.

This hits the nail on the head for me. If different people have different ideals regarding how they wish to proceed, or different opinions about what is viable, then it is important that no time is wasted trying to argue about who is right or wrong, surely simply different paths must be taken, people with the same ideas and aspirations working with one another

[cede]

see there are already crossed-purposes operating here.

aa wants a regular business. others want a co-op. one is about growth, profit, etc. the other is not for profit and only needs to grow so much as its membership grows. frankly they can both survive just fine, but the latter involves less risk, more sustainability and little interest in expansion.

might be good to sort that out first. maybe two things are forming on this thread: a hypothetical regular label and a hypothetical member-run co-op.

While I can see how this could present cross purposes in the viewpoints expressed, i still feel like it is good to look at it from either side.

Outside of whatever label anyone wants to give this sort of operation - co-op, subscription service, regular label - whatever, I am interested in seeing some sort of operation in which the listeners get the tracks they want, can be more involved in the process than usual, pay a reasonable amount for said audio and have the artist be compensated fairly.

In terms of profit. I would just like there to be enough funds remaining to allow the operation to continue. Or enough support available to contribute the funds to allow it to continue.

Again I am going back to some sort of supscription idea. That is basically put into place so all the costs are accounted for. I dont suggest this with some sort of build in for profit either.

[auralassassin]

autonomic, I'm actually totally for the co-op idea... but shared expenses mean shared profits and shared risks and shared efforts.

Obviously there are people who have more to offer as far as money, and there are others who offer more in the area of productions, art, promotion, etc...

If we do a 2000 record run and all 2000 of them sell at the standard going rate, there will be a profit turned. Sure, that profit should go to the label, but if we continue to profit, or rather THE LABEL continues to profit, I would like a chance to get my money back out of that. Obviously, even a co-op is a business.

What we would be getting for the initial startup capital should be considered a loan by all involved, in my opinion. Otherwise, other than that warm fuzzy feeling that I gave someone their start in the industry, there is no reason for me to invest as so far it sounds like there is no potential reward.

Now the key word is POTENTIAL reward. I have no doubt that we can find the talent for the music end, and we can find the connections for the business end and even the funds to start this up.

What happens if the profits start to far exceed the costs to maintain? Obviously if it starts to fail, we can round up more money... but if it succeeds, what then? There will be money and no way to decide where it goes... I doubt that anytime in the near future Dubstep is going to be selling in MAJOR volumes--but what if it does?

Are we ONLY going to charge enough on these records to break even all the time? If that is the case, we're talking about 6 dollars a record(USD) before shipping.

So we're charging 6 Dollars per record?

What about in the US? What if we have US investors? Should we have to pay 10 times more to get records that we've invested in already?

What are we paying for, exactly? Assume that I pay whatever the rate is for this subscription, I still have to pay import prices for a record... so I'm paying to be a member of a club that puts out records and then I pay for the record itself, after I have funded a release... I pay twice, but not only pay twice... I pay MORE than someone in the UK and have to pay outrageous shipping on top of that...

So I'm paying to facilitate the release of cheap records for UK dubstep DJ's to play.

[cede]

You definitely have a strong point aural.

I think if it does come to a point where there is profit, it would make sense for people to see their larger investments returned.

Also if it gets to that profit point, and there is remaining money there is the ability to branch out into other fields, depending upon the wishes of the co-op.

You could have extra money alotted for:

* Web development / hosting

* Doing more interesting packaging per release

* Potential tour support for artists

* Money for events

* Running print ads, etc

But this is all regular label talk for the most part.

In terms of it being a co-op the best scenario would be to account for exact costs for production. Be very specific with the quanitities.

But what happens in the end with the profit really depends upon the main goals and mission of the collective.

We should really think beyond the releases themselves.

What else should we be accomplishing here?

Should this just be about getting extra tunes out from all the producers we have grown to love?

Or should we also use this as a means to get newer artists out there as well?

[adruu]

make a listserv, and get people to join it...

[marsyas]

do it, i bet people would support, main thing just has to be having a definite plan. i am down with anything i could do.

[doomstep]

I'd def. sign on for the co-op, in some way shape or form. I think the idea of having subscriptions is an interesting one, but it would be diffucult t sell something that may take some time to produce, this, of course could be outwieghed by having some bangin tunes.

There are many options. But seriouslly at this stage, disscussing all the potential variable of a potential release is gettin a bit ahead . . . the structure of how the thing, the *co-op* will work (internally) is most important.

. . . not feelin the corp-rot vibe, small businesses are hard t run when everyones within arms reach, doing a "proper" label UK wide would be a stretch, let alone worldwide.

Maybe something like this would help to disscuss it, as an extension of the forum, a public chat-room so to speak.

Doomchat version .0001

[ghettobot]

perhaps, if this is to be a uk based effort, which makes sense, the "u.s. investors could get a load of records shipped to a drop point... buying club style.

[rickyricardo]

Didn't Covert Ops have a subscription series? Does anyone know how that went?

I definitly like the idea of a subscription model...but i'd like to know about other experiences with this kind of idea.

[auralassassin]

I highly disagree and feel much dismay at the idea that the US shouldn't be included. We pay double what you people pay and we never complain about it(more than we have to).

I, for one, wouldn't mind watching someone else pay double for a while just to get ONE record sent to the US, it's like 30 pounds after you figure in shipping and the cost of the record. Sure we get a discount if we order more(rather, we get the shipping combined... not much help, is it?) records... but still.

Feel my pain here for a second, and know that it would be a MAJOR disappointment for the Stateside kru to get cut out... might I be so bold as to interject, the UK doesn't need nearly as much in the way of promoting this sound as the states do--after all, it's pretty damn poppin over there. Here if I tell someone I play dubstep I get a stupid look. Meanwhile, I spend about 500 dollars per month on records that I never get to play out--you think that YOU are broke from buying records over there?

[cede]

i for one now that costs can be stabalized between the states and the UK. Its just a matter of managing things so that the costs are spread evenly.

I mean we run Goosehound from NY, but do all our production in the EU, and we can still sell our records direct for 10 or under.

Plus in this day and age 'importing' records is bullshit. We have way too many shipping options now.

It would all just be a matter of balance. meeting in the middle price wise between the UK and the US.

[cede]

Honestly, who is going to step up and see what this would really take? Given everyone is giving valid points, and are taken a good stance on everything - we are still not making much headway in figuring this out.

What tracks could we realistically get for a SLAMMING first release?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Beuller?

[cede]

Yep - another one.

Maybe we should just make a short list of the tracks that may not be seeing the light of day - and then go direct to the producers to see if they would release said track on a CO-OP label.

After all this thread is a bit pointless if there ends up being nothing to put out.

[m9918868]

While I believe it's a very refreshing idea to start up a label from this forum, I don't see it working very well in a near future. As yet said, too many cooks etc.

Anyway, I would love to help. But why did nobody think about a netlabel yet? It surely would be more economical viable, less risky and could provide some measurement scale for the supposed interest. If things would work out fine, then there is always the possibility to convert to a more traditional form of label management.

[cede]

i think we all just love our vinyl too much.