digital release vs physical

erra · Post by **erra** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:54 pm

balloonhead wrote:erra lives for the physical

haha. Only you would know big boy

tronn · Post by **tronn** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:26 pm

As an American Dubstep fan I'll give my opinion:

I would kill for dubstep artists to put out more of their vinyl releases as digital tunes.

I understand completely that you want to recoup your sales from making the vinyl, but you guys need to put out those digital tunes for more exposure. The more your music gets around, the more the music spreads, and quite frankly (in terms of recouping costs) the more dj opportunities pop up for you guys.

I honestly have never owned a vinyl record in my life, all cd and digital tunes, and in this day and age your going find that most people (especially in the US), are the same way. Dubstep is the first genre to actually make me consider purchasing vinyl, but I take a step back and look at the cost of buying the record, importing the record, all whilst ignoring the fact that I may not even LIKE the tracks, and frankly its not worth it.

And its sad too, I was a summerstage outdoor concert this past summer in Central Park (NYC) and Diplo dropped a Skream track in his mix, and you should see all the new yorkers bobbin there heads with serious bassface, looking around asking 'wow what is this music? this is sick'. And of course Diplo wasn't going to announce where he got the track from.

I play Loefah and DQ1 for my friends and they're shocked at how good the music is, and always ask me to send them the track/artist. I was at club LOVE (NYC) halloween night and Dave Q dropped that PinchvsDistance track there were a ton of people running around 'wow who is this artist'.

Dubstep shows in NY are always packed, and its not just NY its all over the country. And I love the music, so frankly if someone rips the tracks off a vinyl and makes a torrent, I'm going to download it. Not becuase I'm cheap, because I would have bought it if it was released digital, but becuase I want to to listen to the music, goshdarnit.

I know you guys want to stay true to the art form, but jeez that doesn't mean you have to make a ton of the music almost inaccessible to us on the other side of the ocean. Spread the music, spread the art form, and lets get a movement going.

Big ups to all the artists who put their stuff out on digital, especially Distance and that repercussions/chestplace release, which quite frankly was the best 20 bucks I spent all year.

daggus · Post by **daggus** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:45 pm

i wouldnt have loved dubstep so much if it wasn't for vinyl. Scrolling through a list of music files on computer just doesnt compare to takin bit of time an effort to put a record on.

Digital definitely has its place an i can see why ppl get frustrated. But its still unclear if vinyl will survive in the longer term. I'd rather labels tentatively embraced digital, if it means vinyl can continue as viable format.

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:21 pm

tronn wrote:As an American Dubstep fan I'll give my opinion:

I would kill for dubstep artists to put out more of their vinyl releases as digital tunes.

I understand completely that you want to recoup your sales from making the vinyl, but you guys need to put out those digital tunes for more exposure. The more your music gets around, the more the music spreads, and quite frankly (in terms of recouping costs) the more dj opportunities pop up for you guys.

I honestly have never owned a vinyl record in my life, all cd and digital tunes, and in this day and age your going find that most people (especially in the US), are the same way. Dubstep is the first genre to actually make me consider purchasing vinyl, but I take a step back and look at the cost of buying the record, importing the record, all whilst ignoring the fact that I may not even LIKE the tracks, and frankly its not worth it.

And its sad too, I was a summerstage outdoor concert this past summer in Central Park (NYC) and Diplo dropped a Skream track in his mix, and you should see all the new yorkers bobbin there heads with serious bassface, looking around asking 'wow what is this music? this is sick'. And of course Diplo wasn't going to announce where he got the track from.

I play Loefah and DQ1 for my friends and they're shocked at how good the music is, and always ask me to send them the track/artist. I was at club LOVE (NYC) halloween night and Dave Q dropped that PinchvsDistance track there were a ton of people running around 'wow who is this artist'.

Dubstep shows in NY are always packed, and its not just NY its all over the country. And I love the music, so frankly if someone rips the tracks off a vinyl and makes a torrent, I'm going to download it. Not becuase I'm cheap, because I would have bought it if it was released digital, but becuase I want to to listen to the music, goshdarnit.

I know you guys want to stay true to the art form, but jeez that doesn't mean you have to make a ton of the music almost inaccessible to us on the other side of the ocean. Spread the music, spread the art form, and lets get a movement going.

Big ups to all the artists who put their stuff out on digital, especially Distance and that repercussions/chestplace release, which quite frankly was the best 20 bucks I spent all year.

Really I think if a label isn't releasing digital it's their choice, and as such it's their choice to exclude digital listeners. I personally wouldn't do that, but if they want to it's THEIR CALL. It means that they don't want to market themselves that way, and you should respect that. If you don't like it, then email the label or write them a letter or complain here on the forum. The second you steal the tunes, you lose any right to complain about it, IMO.

If they don't put tunes on digital, it's for a reason. Respect that. You don't have to agree, just don't knock the hustle. I don't agree and I will freely express my disagreement in public. But in the end, I don't steal it to make them pay for their lack of interest in Digital.

Also, I don't know how old you are but I bought turntables initially because wax was the only way for me to listen to the music I loved. I had NO OPTION, and so I got them. Then I started messing around with mixing and got a second deck and a mixer. That was before I ever thought about DJing. So I am not inclined to think it's cool for some young'n to come trampling all over the rights of the artist and label.

How rude would it be to walk up to Monet the artist and say "because you aren't doing water color, I'm going to photocopy a print of your work and distribute it online without your permission"

Who do you think you are? You don't have a RIGHT to take someone elses property and distribute it. Quite simply if it was meant to be sold digitally, it would be digital. The fact that some tunes aren't released digitally doesn't make it then cool for you to take it upon yourself to distribute it. I don't steal your car and then use it to start a career in NASCAR. I'd go to jail. And well... how is this different? Because you feel entitled?

I live in the same country as you do and have paid the same prices(obviously a lot longer and in multiple genre's) and don't feel that same sense of entitlement. You want to do your friends a service, send them a low quality rip(64K mp3 in mono FTW) and a link to a shop to buy it. You can get the basic idea of what a tune sounds like from there and if you want, buy it. If not, enjoy your low quality rip. If you don't pay for it, you don't deserve it.

Also, for some labels it's not entirely about selling tons of records or being famous or promoting themselves, such as Mala... you certainly know his name--but you won't catch him on this or any forum bigging up his newest promo's. It's about moments in time in a club with your friends, not about your sense of entitlement. Some tunes are meant to be limited to select DJ's and small numbers of the public for a reason. Respect that. That is what they want to do as artists, and you don't have a right to step on their toes.

manray · Post by **manray** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:03 pm

Surface_Tension wrote: Also, I don't know how old you are but I bought turntables initially because wax was the only way for me to listen to the music I loved. I had NO OPTION, and so I got them. Then I started messing around with mixing and got a second deck and a mixer. That was before I ever thought about DJing. So I am not inclined to think it's cool for some young'n to come trampling all over the rights of the artist and label.

Surface_Tension wrote:I live in the same country as you do and have paid the same prices(obviously a lot longer and in multiple genre's)

Just a couple that stood out but I might as well have quoted every fucking post you've made in this thread because it's just all condescending bullshit. It's ok to be passionate about something but no need to go on like you are some big fucking don on road.

You've said yourself you don't have the answers so stop going on like you do. Keep it an opinion and stop preaching.

Downloading a track from a torrent is NOT the same as stealing a car. Fact. If Tronn doesn't have decks and doesn't buy vinyl then him grabbing a track of the torrents does not represent an actual loss in sale. The fact he is so passionate about the music and is spreading it to people who otherwise would never have heard it actually represents a positive for the community as a whole.

I can understand why labels are pushing vinyl first because right now that represents the majority of their sales. I'm sure a lot of it comes down to keeping the tunes and vinyl exclusive and I totally understand that. You just need to understand that you cannot blame people for ripping your music if you don't make it available to them in the format they want it.

armada · Post by **armada** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:19 pm

tronn wrote:
I know you guys want to stay true to the art form, but jeez that doesn't mean you have to make a ton of the music almost inaccessible to us on the other side of the ocean. Spread the music, spread the art form, and lets get a movement going.

i live in the states and usually make at least one purchase a month from redeyerecords.co.uk

a single 12" generally costs $7.50 and the $3 shipping you get from that site is cheaper than ANY domestic shipping you can find. stop complaining and start SPREADING THE MUSIC by supporting the record labels by BUYING their music!!! If everyone ripped shit off the internet like you do then there wouldn't be any dubstep.

string · Post by **string** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:19 pm

manray wrote:
Just a couple that stood out but I might as well have quoted every fucking post you've made in this thread because it's just all condescending bullshit. It's ok to be passionate about something but no need to go on like you are some big fucking don on road.

You've said yourself you don't have the answers so stop going on like you do. Keep it an opinion and stop preaching.

Downloading a track from a torrent is NOT the same as stealing a car. Fact. If Tronn doesn't have decks and doesn't buy vinyl then him grabbing a track of the torrents does not represent an actual loss in sale. The fact he is so passionate about the music and is spreading it to people who otherwise would never have heard it actually represents a positive for the community as a whole.

I can understand why labels are pushing vinyl first because right now that represents the majority of their sales. I'm sure a lot of it comes down to keeping the tunes and vinyl exclusive and I totally understand that. You just need to understand that you cannot blame people for ripping your music if you don't make it available to them in the format they want it.

I was starting to write a reply then saw this and its basically on point.

Wild examples of what downloading an mp3 from a torrent site is like are verging on the ridiculous and sounding very familiar (Lars from Metallica during the Napster shut down)

Surface_Tension said a few posts ago that he was coming across as an arrogent twat, but then carrys on doing so...

Let your music do the talking, because I've certainly heard enough of you for a while

alex deadman · Post by **alex deadman** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:26 pm

Dubstepforum always comes up trumps for providing a reasoned debate on any issue. I wish DnB Arena was more like it!

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:38 pm

I see... so now stealing isn't stealing?

Stealing IS, in fact stealing. I don't have the answers in regard to what to do about stealing, but that doesn't mean I don't know that stealing is stealing.

It's not the same thing as stealing a car, but it is 100% as wrong as stealing a car. It's called an analogy, and the reason I used it, was because stealing music is equally as bad. You cannot differentiate rape, theft, murder, etc... it's not the intent, it's the action and the result. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I didn't have the option to steal music back in the day, so I bought it or didn't buy it and didn't have it. That is how it should be. Or you could try and ask if you could paypal some money to the artist for the tune. You don't have the right to steal. That is condescending? So be it.

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:46 pm

armada wrote:
tronn wrote:
I know you guys want to stay true to the art form, but jeez that doesn't mean you have to make a ton of the music almost inaccessible to us on the other side of the ocean. Spread the music, spread the art form, and lets get a movement going.

i live in the states and usually make at least one purchase a month from redeyerecords.co.uk

a single 12" generally costs $7.50 and the $3 shipping you get from that site is cheaper than ANY domestic shipping you can find. stop complaining and start SPREADING THE MUSIC by supporting the record labels by BUYING their music!!! If everyone ripped shit off the internet like you do then there wouldn't be any dubstep.

Exactly... it would be different if I were telling people to buy music while I was in the process of checking my Utorrent for whether or not my latest tunes had a good ratio. It really is an example of human greed and a sense of entitlement. We see it every day, but people who supposedly are supporting and caring about music are advocating the stealing of that music. And you will note those that are saying it is perfectly fine to steal are the same ones who have a problem with my advocating for taking those people to task.

I'm not being a hypocrite here though. Our label even pays to license our samples that appear in tunes, otherwise they don't come out. We are 100% opposed to violating property rights of artists and labels. I don't see how someone can come here, to a site full of these artists and labels and admit to stealing. You walk into a store and admit to stealing a CD they will throw your ass in jail. HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT?

tronn · Post by **tronn** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:55 pm

I absolutely dont disrespect any label for excluding digital listeners. I said it would be better for the dubstep genre as a whole if they didnt do so (I think its hard to disagree with that) and I said thanks to all those artist who do. How i did i 'knock the hustle'?

So great your older than me, I am a "young'n" who was lucky enough to live in an era where the music I loved was available on cd and mp3. I like to listen to my songs on the go while i do things, and i cant afford to spend extra money on a turntable and importing vinyls.

And bro, i never said I steal songs off of anyones vinyl, so don't accuse me of that. If i did say that then quote me. I DID say that I would (and have) downloaded dubstep tracks from torrents. If you go to any big torrent site right now and type in dubstep there will be a bunch of torrents full of vinyl tracks that were never released digital.

If you are a fan of dubstep and there is NO OTHER WAY for you to get a ton of dubstep tracks (some you may not even like), other than purchasing a turntable and buying (importing) all the vinyl records its hiiiigghlllyyy likellyyy you will download those torrents. Otherwise, you'll never hear the tracks, and you'll be missing out on a ton of artists and amazing songs. What good does that do genre?

Say you are not yet a fan of dubstep, but you here an ntype song at a party that really piques your interest. So you go to the amazon mp3 store or wherever else you USUALLY go for your music, type in ntype, find nothing and go oh well and give it up, and maybe you wont look into dubstep again.

Thats a completely hypothetical situation, and granted thats one person which may not be a big deal, but thats one person who wouldve downloaded his ntype song, loved the genre, bought the digital releases he could find (maybe vinyl if he had $), and showed all his friends the new music he was into. I mean that's how music spreads right? If you WANT to spread your music, then going digital is far from a bad idea.

Unless you make tracks that "Some tunes are meant to be limited to select DJ's and small numbers of the public for a reason", which is your own choice, although I highly doubt thats what most of the dubstep artists are going for. I'm pretty sure when any dubstep dj does a show at Love nyc, and compares the size of the crowd from 2006 to the huge crowd now in '08, they don't get pissed off that so many people now appreciate their music.

I remember the first time i got into dubstep was after hearing Digital Mystikz' AWAKE and then copping the Grime 2 cd. The next cd i bought after that was burial. Ive been a digital man all my life, and i'll wait for those guys who put out there cds once a year or so, but I dont download tracks becuase the tracks are out on cd and im cheap and dont want to buy them, (amazon mp3 sells tracks for 89cents, no reason to be so cheap) i download tracks becuase I can't afford to be importing vinyls with two songs on them.

And Surface_Tension: watch how condescending you are when you're having a discussion. I have an opinion and I expressed it. Respect that.

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:17 pm

If you don't put your releases out on digital, you have it coming then?

Pointing out that music is stolen and that it is easily accessed on torrent trackers doesn't make it ok. Having millions of thiefs in the world when it comes to music doesn't make your theft ok. Keep telling yourself that. How would you like it if I came and stole your Ipod?

I'm just going to let my friends listen to it, so it's cool right? I'm jus promoting the tunes.

armada · Post by **armada** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:20 pm

tronn wrote: And I love the music, so frankly if someone rips the tracks off a vinyl and makes a torrent, I'm going to download it. Not becuase I'm cheap, because I would have bought it if it was released digital, but becuase I want to to listen to the music, goshdarnit.

sorry, didn't realize you were talking in the hypothetical. but I would suggest rather than downloading off the internet, anyone and everyone should find a mix with the song on it. there are literally thousands and thousands of dubstep mixes to be had for free. it's beautiful. find some DJ's whose selections you really enjoy and keep up with them. if cant find a DJ whose selection you really like then buy some records and make your own mix and maybe others will like YOUR selection.

nothing but respect from this side. let's all leave our egos at the login page and get along for the better of dubstep!

boogiemeister · Post by **boogiemeister** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:37 pm

in my opinion one real problem is that Dubstep is basically only easily accessible to people in Europe. Ordering records from the UK to US is a major pain in the ass. The fact that US labels like Argon press their stuff in Europe doesn't make this easier. I'm glad that I'm in a position where I can easily order records from the UK or buy them here but it would be better for the whole community if the American labels and artists press their stuff domestically. I think the only US-pressed dubstep records I own are the Lo Dubs releases and a DJ Dore/Nebulla 12". Maybe labels should consider working together with US labels and have their stuff licensed there.
As far as torrents, blogs and p2p goes, a lot of the "music pirates" are from the eastern part of Europe or Asia where they can't even possibly afford two decks and a mixer, let alone ordering the gazillion tons of vinyl that came out in the last couple of years. I'm not condoning this but digital releases seem to remedy that a little. I can understand that Surface Tension gets heated by this topic as the internet has really hurt underground artists a lot. It was easier for an underground artist to get a deal 10 years ago than it is now. I mean how much is an average press of a Dubstep 12"? I guess in most cases not more than 1000, in fact I think even less. I play in a Grindcore band and we easily sold 3000 CDs 10 years ago, nowadays we are happy if we move 500.

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:58 pm

boogs wrote:we easily sold 3000 CDs 10 years ago, nowadays we are happy if we move 500.

This is the current state of Dubstep. If you are selling Dubstep and sell 500 copies, you have done the extraordinary. It's a tough racket.

I am sure people will point out how CERTAIN MAJOR LABELS will sell more than that, but honestly most of them don't.

whygohome10 · Post by **whygohome10** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:14 pm

Surface_Tension wrote:I see... so now stealing isn't stealing?

Stealing IS, in fact stealing.

not everything is so fcking black and white...

I made a mix cd for four of my friends the other day who would never have discovered the likes of kode9, ramadanman, and modeselektor. I told them all about the dubstep genre, if they liked it (which the did) they will go out and buy it whether its digital or cd or vinyl.

are they stealing?? am I stealing???

thinking · Post by **thinking** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:28 pm

Surface_Tension wrote:PM Thinking.

In the PM, I basically explain it like this...

So a distributor of 3 labels last year has 3000 record sales... 1000 for each label. Then sees this success for those 3 labels and signed 5 more labels, which then sell 500 copies each...

Last year: 3000
This year: 2500

Net loss. So assume they signed 50 labels instead, which then sold 500 copies each. Yea, the Distributor made a profit, so did those labels... they didn't sell 1000 copies though, so the likely percentage of sales PER LABEL is down. And that is what I am referring to here. That would equal a net loss in my eyes. Great, there are more labels doing worse than they were when there were less labels. In any case, I'd definitely try to work things out--but I wouldn't thank a blog owner by providing them more content. How does that help our cause... they post a link, that link spreads, those spread links spread further...

i'm not going to argue about this for long, as it's most likely pointless, and I'm unable to qualify my position as I'm not about to post labels' sales figures.

however, your example and argument is skewed - the numbers make sense but the model displays inherent flaws. If a distro has signed labels/artist in those quantities (most likely to P&D deals), and the sales overall are that bad, then the quality control process has broken down. GOOD records will always sell, and the releases/labels that succeed are the ones that continue to sell, week in week out, for months. If you press 500 and never repress, of course you'll never make loads of money - it's the represses that represent a profit margin nowadays.

This is how 'big' labels get 'big' - by curating the best music, nurturing talent, and developing a reputation. Hessle is one of the best examples of this - their first 3 releases were all artist debuts (one of whom has since signed to Tempa), and within 18 months and 6 releases they've become one of the most respected and exciting labels within the scene or outside it.

Your example of 3 big labels doing well leading to signing another 5 which perform poorly sounds like the result of bad decisions and music with a short shelflife, nothing to do with the state of the scene or record sales.

Anyways I'm outta here.

Pistonsbeneath · Post by **Pistonsbeneath** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:47 pm

peak wrote:kill mp3... vinyl or nothing!!!

wav & flac mate....you cant rip a vinyl to the same standard.....so if youre using anything but vinyl thats the only option really if sound is crucial to you

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:49 pm

whygohome10 wrote:
Surface_Tension wrote:I see... so now stealing isn't stealing?

Stealing IS, in fact stealing.
not everything is so fcking black and white...

I made a mix cd for four of my friends the other day who would never have discovered the likes of kode9, ramadanman, and modeselektor. I told them all about the dubstep genre, if they liked it (which the did) they will go out and buy it whether its digital or cd or vinyl.

are they stealing?? am I stealing???

or if they like it they will go out and steal it.

And yes, if you don't own the license to that tune, by purchase or by gift of the label/artist--you Stole. The assumption that they won't follow your poor example is a bad one. Why didn't you go and buy the tune digitally and give them a licensed copy of the tune? It's only a dollar or two, right?

I mean that is the argument for digital, is that it is cheaper... what difference does it make if it's on digital if you will just steal a vinyl rip?

And yes, it is black and white. If you gave our tunes away, you took money out of my pocket, the pocket of my partner, the pocket of the producer, the pocket of the distributor, etc.. who are you to decide for us how to promote our tunes?

Clubs are required to pay licensing fees or they will get shut down. Why?

If you don't like a law, lobby to have it changed. That doesn't mean you can just outright ignore the law.

Pistonsbeneath · Post by **Pistonsbeneath** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:49 pm

and surely digital sales are enormous next to the vinyl sales.....and a wav or flac costs between 1.99 & 2.60 in most places...surely sell 100 of them and youve done well?

digital release vs physical

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