Man who died at G20 protests - new footage.

firky · Post by **firky** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:26 pm

"If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

alien pimp · Post by **alien pimp** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:08 pm

Magma wrote:
alien pimp wrote:
Magma wrote:people's views are just too complex to sum up in one statement...
yet democracy is based on people summing up their views is one statement, known as the elections/referendum result
there's more examples than that, but this one is basic
Yeah, totally. Common problem of logistics really... we're not as good as someone like Switzerland, but even they can't give the people all the choices directly. The best we can do is educate our answers to the one statement we get to make sure it best represents our own views by reading leaflets, manifestos, the news and the like... you'll never see an MP that perfectly represents your views without running to be an MP yourself, though!

i'm glad you agreed democracy is based on faulty methods.
expressing yourself never was a problem of logistics
logistics come up when you want so listen to all those views and sum them up. and if they don't manage it properly in 2009 for sure it's not because they can't. and when they try to manipulate those views, clearly nobody is interested in the real deal, just in getting things done

magma · Post by **magma** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:33 am

It's faulty, but it's the best we got. I'd rather have a partial voice than none at all, even if I am just shouting from the crowd.

I can't imagine there would ever be a politician that truly reflected my views without me running myself - that's just human nature - I try to act positively in the system we find ourselves with, though. It's not going away... better get on with pushing for reforms/improvements rather than unrealistic dreams of, well... I'm not sure what else. I can't think of a realistic alternative.

Who's going today? Me and my housemates are, although my work pager has been going off like I'm a Miami coke dealer in the 80s already today... so it's possible they might keep me away (which of course is down to an enormous global conspiracy to stop IT workers protesting ).

I still think it's pretty important to get people out on the streets to remind the Met that they are paid for by the people in order to protect the people... and to remind them that our Nokias are just as powerful surveilance tools as their CCTV cameras, so they'd better act right.

Move out!

alien pimp · Post by **alien pimp** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:37 pm

the best you can think of it's not good enough for most people on this planet, and for sure in the year 2009 it's not the best out there
for sure acting positive can't mean working for somebody that's acting negative, nor being reactionary and supporting an establishment that's acting negative

magma · Post by **magma** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:56 pm

alien pimp wrote:the best you can think of it's not good enough for most people on this planet, and for sure in the year 2009 it's not the best out there
for sure acting positive can't mean working for somebody that's acting negative, nor being reactionary and supporting an establishment that's acting negative

True. All depends on how you personally define all those criteria!

Out of interest - if a Parliamentary Democracy is "not the best out there" in your head - what is the best out there currently?

alien pimp · Post by **alien pimp** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:19 pm

when something harms more people than it helps, that's a bad thing regardless any personal views on it. the various forms of the same crap experienced by humanity today finds the planet populated by a large majority of unhappy people

as i said many times, what i think is irrelevant, what i can prove is relevant. but since my views and my person seem to matter to you a lot, i'll say i fancy constitutional republic a lot more, from what's been rinsed so far.
but the best out there is the sum of all ideas and experiences that make a lot of sense to improve people's life. that maybe doesn't have yet a name. neither did many things before they became common knowledge

sang-froid · Post by **sang-froid** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:39 pm

Firky wrote:Meh, anyone who is older enough to remember the poll tax riots or the miner's strike will know this kind of thing happens all the time with the police.

People, let's keep some perspective here . . .

Even madder still, some have talked about the policing that led to the Tomlinson incident in the same breath as the ‘policing’ of the miners’ strike in 1984-85 (4). Yet there’s little comparison between the state’s declaration of all-out war against a section of the working classes and the chaotic situation in which a man with a drinking problem had a heart attack in London on 1 April. Others have said the ‘killing of Tomlinson’ is ‘just like Jean Charles de Menezes’, the Brazilian electrician shot to death by police in the aftermath of the failed 21/7 bombings in 2005 (5). But aside from both incidents being followed by initially misleading police press statements, there is no crossover between the rough pushing of Tomlinson and the shooting of seven bullets into de Menezes’ head.

And the link for the whole article :

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/6542/

dubstepper · Post by **dubstepper** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:03 pm

Altered State wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7988828.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7988828.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7988828.stm

Woo, go british police.

He wasn't even protesting according to this....

that man was my friends step dad, fucking police are wankers. the man was doing fuck all wrong. rip brother

firky · Post by **firky** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:29 pm

sang-froid wrote:
Firky wrote:Meh, anyone who is older enough to remember the poll tax riots or the miner's strike will know this kind of thing happens all the time with the police.

People, let's keep some perspective here . . .

Even madder still, some have talked about the policing that led to the Tomlinson incident in the same breath as the ‘policing’ of the miners’ strike in 1984-85 (4). Yet there’s little comparison between the state’s declaration of all-out war against a section of the working classes and the chaotic situation in which a man with a drinking problem had a heart attack in London on 1 April. Others have said the ‘killing of Tomlinson’ is ‘just like Jean Charles de Menezes’, the Brazilian electrician shot to death by police in the aftermath of the failed 21/7 bombings in 2005 (5). But aside from both incidents being followed by initially misleading police press statements, there is no crossover between the rough pushing of Tomlinson and the shooting of seven bullets into de Menezes’ head.

And the link for the whole article :

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/6542/

What has the RCP's skeleton got to do with anything?

magma · Post by **magma** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:10 am

alien pimp wrote:when something harms more people than it helps, that's a bad thing regardless any personal views on it. the various forms of the same crap experienced by humanity today finds the planet populated by a large majority of unhappy people

as i said many times, what i think is irrelevant, what i can prove is relevant. but since my views and my person seem to matter to you a lot, i'll say i fancy constitutional republic a lot more, from what's been rinsed so far.
but the best out there is the sum of all ideas and experiences that make a lot of sense to improve people's life. that maybe doesn't have yet a name. neither did many things before they became common knowledge

A proper harnessing of future technology could provide a more "borg" like existance - is that what you mean? I don't know if I like the idea of that... I haven't really contemplated it that hard. I'm of the opinion that we're better off living in a modern society where we can build massive constructions and organisations like hospitals, schools, laboratories, factories etc rather than have everyone scrabbling around in the dirt in small hunter/gatherer groups - which is, don't forget, the natural state of human existance without all of the pesky societal structures that you don't like. Society will hopefully be able to produce structures that provide more and more input for it's citizens - but only if those citizens are actively pushing in that direction (rather than dropping out of the system).

On the "borg" type tip (I assume that's the right word - I'm not a Star Trek watcher, but my housemate is into this sort of stuff and he uses it!) - we've already shown very effective methods of pooling our knowledge and information (for example Wikipedia - no doubt still in it's primitive stages) - the next step may be developing technology that allows us to interface directly with that information - so we all have it *all* the time. That would create a very interesting shift in human/societal evolution.

Incidentally.... as far as the "my views seem to matter to you a lot" comment goes. I was originally having a conversation with Genevieve... you were the one that injerjected. I'm not interested in your views particularly - I'm interested in anyone's views who feels the need to involve themselves in these conversations - you evidently do, you obviously do care about this stuff or you wouldn't reply to the threads. You raised an interesting point, I don't think you should do yourself down as much.

sang-froid · Post by **sang-froid** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:59 am

Firky wrote:
sang-froid wrote:
Firky wrote:Meh, anyone who is older enough to remember the poll tax riots or the miner's strike will know this kind of thing happens all the time with the police.

People, let's keep some perspective here . . .

Even madder still, some have talked about the policing that led to the Tomlinson incident in the same breath as the ‘policing’ of the miners’ strike in 1984-85 (4). Yet there’s little comparison between the state’s declaration of all-out war against a section of the working classes and the chaotic situation in which a man with a drinking problem had a heart attack in London on 1 April. Others have said the ‘killing of Tomlinson’ is ‘just like Jean Charles de Menezes’, the Brazilian electrician shot to death by police in the aftermath of the failed 21/7 bombings in 2005 (5). But aside from both incidents being followed by initially misleading police press statements, there is no crossover between the rough pushing of Tomlinson and the shooting of seven bullets into de Menezes’ head.

And the link for the whole article :

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/6542/

What has the RCP's skeleton got to do with anything?

Confused by what exactly . . . .?

tr0tsky · Post by **tr0tsky** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:24 pm

Firky wrote:
sang-froid wrote:
Firky wrote:Meh, anyone who is older enough to remember the poll tax riots or the miner's strike will know this kind of thing happens all the time with the police.

People, let's keep some perspective here . . .

Even madder still, some have talked about the policing that led to the Tomlinson incident in the same breath as the ‘policing’ of the miners’ strike in 1984-85 (4). Yet there’s little comparison between the state’s declaration of all-out war against a section of the working classes and the chaotic situation in which a man with a drinking problem had a heart attack in London on 1 April. Others have said the ‘killing of Tomlinson’ is ‘just like Jean Charles de Menezes’, the Brazilian electrician shot to death by police in the aftermath of the failed 21/7 bombings in 2005 (5). But aside from both incidents being followed by initially misleading police press statements, there is no crossover between the rough pushing of Tomlinson and the shooting of seven bullets into de Menezes’ head.

And the link for the whole article :

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/6542/

What has the RCP's skeleton got to do with anything?

Agreed.

sang-froid · Post by **sang-froid** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:16 pm

tr0tsky wrote:
Firky wrote:
sang-froid wrote:
Firky wrote:Meh, anyone who is older enough to remember the poll tax riots or the miner's strike will know this kind of thing happens all the time with the police.

People, let's keep some perspective here . . .

Even madder still, some have talked about the policing that led to the Tomlinson incident in the same breath as the ‘policing’ of the miners’ strike in 1984-85 (4). Yet there’s little comparison between the state’s declaration of all-out war against a section of the working classes and the chaotic situation in which a man with a drinking problem had a heart attack in London on 1 April. Others have said the ‘killing of Tomlinson’ is ‘just like Jean Charles de Menezes’, the Brazilian electrician shot to death by police in the aftermath of the failed 21/7 bombings in 2005 (5). But aside from both incidents being followed by initially misleading police press statements, there is no crossover between the rough pushing of Tomlinson and the shooting of seven bullets into de Menezes’ head.

And the link for the whole article :

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/6542/

What has the RCP's skeleton got to do with anything?
Agreed.

agreed with what exactly . . .?

tr0tsky · Post by **tr0tsky** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:17 am

Asking what the heck Spiked has to do with anything.

It's crap and run by a bunch of nutjobs.

metalboxproducts · Post by **metalboxproducts** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:20 am

tr0tsky wrote:Asking what the heck Spiked has to do with anything.

It's crap and run by a bunch of nutjobs.

Maybe you should read it rather then dismissing it. That might mean having to consider views that run counter to your own though so you probably wont. Have you ever met any of the contributer's to spiked or is your opinion based on something other then knowledge and fact?

sang-froid · Post by **sang-froid** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:26 am

tr0tsky wrote:Asking what the heck Spiked has to do with anything.

It's crap and run by a bunch of nutjobs.

Your response to 'spiked' seems to run counter to your usual, resonably thoughtful comments on issues. Strange, and somewhat disappointing really.

magma · Post by **magma** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:27 am

Re: Spiked - tr0tsky's already justified his stance on them pretty well....
http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 28#1109428

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiked_(magazine)

http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/a- ... 46793.html

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=LM_group

http://www.lobbywatch.org/lm_watch.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Marxism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution ... (UK,_1978)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Furedi

firky · Post by **firky** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:39 am

sang-froid wrote:
What has the RCP's skeleton got to do with anything?

Confused by what exactly . . . .?[/quote]

Why anyone would cite RCP tripe.

firky · Post by **firky** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:40 am

tr0tsky wrote:Asking what the heck Spiked has to do with anything.

It's crap and run by a bunch of nutjobs.

Init. May as well pull something out of your arse instead

metalboxproducts · Post by **metalboxproducts** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:41 am

Would it not be better to actually read some of what is actually written in spiked and perhaps comment on them and engage rather then trawling the internet to find some very spurious articles?

Man who died at G20 protests - new footage.

Re: Man who died at G20 protests - new footage.

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