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Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:21 am
by macc
Genevieve wrote:I don't want a clipped sound. o.o Like, pretend that I'm not making breakcore. I 'get' breakcore, but I wanna keep my shit clean, you know?
I was just wondering if my overall drums (clean 909 kick, 2 breaks) were supposed to peak at -8 together and if my distorted kick (as opposed to my clean kick) should be treated as a bassline rather than a drum and therefore shouldn't be included in the '-8/10' reference point.
I've done my share of dirty as shit breakcore too in the past but I wanna keep it clean.
I did cover all that in that post (see the bit about lots of individual parts at -8 )
I just then went off on one about pushing things really hard
It's alllllll already in the thread
Forgetting the numbers - all you need to do is ask yourself what needs half the cake. You can't give a clean 909 AND a break AND another break AND a distorted basskickthing half the cake each, you'd need two cakes. You only have one. So each part has to get less cake, simple as that.
So you decide, say, half the cake to 909+2breaks and the other half to dirtybassjobby, But that leaves no cake for anyone else. So you cut a bit extra off of the halves, in case someone else wants cake later.
Half the cake is -6dB. Give two things -6 and you're out of room. Take a bit extra off, simple. This is where this
originlly almost completely arbitrary -8dB figure came from. Less is even better. Who gives a shit what the number is? Just make sure there's plenty of cake for everyone. Hooray!
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:23 am
by macc
Or to put it another way;
Genevieve wrote:
I was just wondering if my overall drums (clean 909 kick, 2 breaks) were supposed to peak at -8 together and if my distorted kick (as opposed to my clean kick) should be treated as a bassline rather than a drum and therefore shouldn't be included in the '-8/10' reference point.
yes
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:42 pm
by Genevieve
Excellent! I get that -8 and -10 were just some arbitrary numbers, but it's nice to start working with them. I'll probably save my current file as and see where I can go with it when I separate the distorted kick from the clean one and make the clean drums peak at -9 or something.
Edit: Heh, I just halved allll the faders of my current file (except for my sub which is now comfortably sitting 3 dB below the total drums). The mix already sounded good at higher volumes, but it was peaking at -1. Now all the breaks, vocals, kicks, sub, sounds perfect. I can even make the distorted kick a bit louder now, making it more powerful (it's louder than the sub, I thought that's alright seeing as it contains more frequencies). No synths yet, but I don't feel like I'll have to worry very much about where the synths will sit in the mix when I at them.
Man, and I thought I was keeping my levels low before!
Amazing thread, as per usual.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:57 pm
by macc
Pleased to help, loike
Re: Re:
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:05 pm
by deadly_habit
Genevieve wrote:deadly habit wrote:Genevieve wrote:macc wrote:Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.
Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.
Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).
This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get
repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.
heh then ignore this thread when it comes to most things and go to far extremes digitally
i still remember when i discovered how to make that classic gabber kick via digital clipping and went really?
This is has been 'bugging' me for ages, should've asked this before. Like, since I first read this post.
Sooo, I mostly make breakcore. I often layer two to three breaks at the time, all edited and mashed up. Then there are the gabber kick drums. I usually have one completely clean kick and one completely distorted kick in two different channels and I play with the faders until I get the wet/clean ratio I desire.
My question is this; should my clean kick + all breaks peak at around -8 - 10 dB,
as a whole? As if I were to route them all to a send and have that send peak at 'around' -8/-10? And should I treat the 100% distorted kick as a bassline rather than a drum?
depends on if you want a clean breakcore sound or a traditional one imo
most older gabber and breakcore relied on digital clipping
Well, I'ma put it like this. If I were making the Bloody Fist/DHR/Praxis type breakcore, I wouldn't be posting in this thread haha. Still got mad love, for it, though.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:06 pm
by deadly_habit
macc wrote:Pleased to help, loike
make some new dnb tunes fucker
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:11 pm
by SunkLo
deadly habit wrote:macc wrote:Pleased to help, loike
make some new dnb tunes fucker
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:21 am
by macc
deadly habit wrote:macc wrote:Pleased to help, loike
make some new dnb tunes fucker
Finished my first tune in 3 years TODAY.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:22 am
by deadly_habit
macc wrote:deadly habit wrote:macc wrote:Pleased to help, loike
make some new dnb tunes fucker
Finished my first tune in 3 years TODAY.
gimme
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:33 am
by macc
I'll let you know when it's available (remix, commissioned etc).
It's got my balls rolling again... so to speak.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:35 am
by deadly_habit
macc wrote:I'll let you know when it's available (remix, commissioned etc).
It's got my balls rolling again... so to speak.
patience is a virtue i chose to ignore in this case
good to hear you're back at it
now bring your live show to the usa
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:38 am
by macc
I'm working on that, too
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:40 am
by deadly_habit
sir i'd like to subscribe to your newsletter
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:12 am
by macc
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:54 am
by nowaysj
macc wrote:The short answer is that ideally, when working with any processing at all (mixing, mastering, whatever), it is a very very good idea to match the perceived level before and after the processor. Then you can bypass bypass bypass the processor and hear only what the processor is doing, and not be tricked by the level difference. You can then make a true judgment as to whether the processing change is actually good, or if it is just different. Level matching is the only way to know for sure. Keep the perceived level the same the whole way through the chain, and make sure that everything you are doing is better - not just louder. Then make the final gain boost with the limiter.
If I'm missing further explication of this, please direct me.
In the past 6 mo or so, I've been getting really anal about a/bing with the exact same levels. If something is hitting -14.7 before, I get post fx output to hit -14.7. Then I judge if I'm making something better or louder.
But this is not what you recommend? You recommend matching the perceived levels? I have to admit, matching perceived levels doesn't make sense to me. Shed that macc light, if you will?
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:12 am
by staticcast
nowaysj wrote:macc wrote:The short answer is that ideally, when working with any processing at all (mixing, mastering, whatever), it is a very very good idea to match the perceived level before and after the processor. Then you can bypass bypass bypass the processor and hear only what the processor is doing, and not be tricked by the level difference. You can then make a true judgment as to whether the processing change is actually good, or if it is just different. Level matching is the only way to know for sure. Keep the perceived level the same the whole way through the chain, and make sure that everything you are doing is better - not just louder. Then make the final gain boost with the limiter.
If I'm missing further explication of this, please direct me.
In the past 6 mo or so, I've been getting really anal about a/bing with the exact same levels. If something is hitting -14.7 before, I get post fx output to hit -14.7. Then I judge if I'm making something better or louder.
But this is not what you recommend? You recommend matching the perceived levels? I have to admit, matching perceived levels doesn't make sense to me. Shed that macc light, if you will?
I'm not macc - but it's basically down to making a fair comparison. You want to see if your channel sounds better with an effect, but the effect also makes the channel louder. More often than not, louder sounds better, so switching on the effect makes you think it's giving your channel loads of punch, energy, body, profit. Instead, it's actually just making it louder and shittier. It's best to keep the effect at an output level so that it sounds like it's running at the same level as when it's bypassed, so you can really compare the two sounds properly.
This is why it frustrates me (though I understand why they'd do it!) when ME houses upload "before/after" clips where the before clip is peaking at -10dB and the after clip has an RMS of -5. Of course the "after" clip is gonna sound like it has more energy - at that level it does! What would be better would be to match the perceived levels, and judge: a) whether the ME has made it sound better than the original in terms of frequency response, balance etc, and b) to what extent the ME has sacrificed dynamic range and introduced distortion for the sake of making it louder. In order to judge b), you have to listen to the "after" clip at such a volume that there is no difference in "loudness".
BTW, for the most part, peak level on its own isn't really all that meaningful a quantity. Sure, you can relate it to attack, punch, dynamic range etc, but the main reason we care about it is because it can't exceed 0dB at the end of the chain. In terms of "how loud is this", it doesn't really mean that much. For example, a square wave peaking at -10dB will sound a hell of a lot louder than a sine peaking at -10dB, not only because of Felcher Munt-on, but because it's got a much higher RMS.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:19 am
by nowaysj
static_cast wrote:I'm not macc - but it's basically down to making a fair comparison. You want to see if your channel sounds better with an effect, but the effect also makes the channel louder. More often than not, louder sounds better, so switching on the effect makes you think it's giving your channel loads of punch, energy, body, profit. Instead, it's actually just making it louder and shittier. It's best to keep the effect at an output level so that it sounds like it's running at the same level as when it's bypassed, so you can really compare the two sounds properly.
Yep, 100% got that. But that's not really the question. Why match perceived volume rather than actual volume? ESPECIALLY when it's agreed that louder sounds like better. The inverse of that is true, no, that better sounds like louder?
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:24 am
by SunkLo
Because peak volume is irrelevant in most situations regarding percieving whether something sounds better. If you compress a signal you want to be hearing the difference in dynamic range and the particular attack and release characteristics, not that one is quieter or louder. You're going to end up level setting the signal based on percieved volume anyway so it's best to set them both to be equal, then you can actually asses what the plugin is doing apart from gain changes.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:42 am
by nowaysj
SunkLo wrote:Because peak volume is irrelevant in most situations regarding percieving whether something sounds better.
I kind of disagree with this. Or in some situations I disagree with this. A lot of times, I have something that is peaking at a reasonable level, at a workable level relative to other elements of the mix, but the element doesn't sound loud enough. So I end up attempting to increase the perceived volume while keeping the peak at the same place. Is that making sense? Having a helluva time articulating the simplest shit right now.
Re: gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:14 pm
by Phigure
nowaysj wrote:SunkLo wrote:Because peak volume is irrelevant in most situations regarding percieving whether something sounds better.
I kind of disagree with this. Or in some situations I disagree with this. A lot of times, I have something that is peaking at a reasonable level, at a workable level relative to other elements of the mix, but the element doesn't sound loud enough. So I end up attempting to increase the perceived volume while keeping the peak at the same place. Is that making sense? Having a helluva time articulating the simplest shit right now.
You mean compression?