up to £9000 UK tuition increase approved.

[slothrop]

Why hasn't anyone suggested making it much harder to get into University and courses being equivalent hours to employment, that'll soon put the numbers of students down and just leave the most deserving and hard working to still go and get more valued qualifications regardless of ££.

Also worth noting that there seem to be plenty of people in the US doing waste degrees and getting drunk all the time despite having to pick up massive loans or scrounge money off rich parents to do so.

IOW the whole thing is the usual Tory trick of identifying a problem that they can blame on Labour and then doing what they wanted to do anyway on the grounds that "it's the only option", even if it's basically irrelevant to the real problems.

[cogidubnus]

The main point about the fees I think, is that a supposedly civilised and enlightened government should recognize that investing in it's students is an investment in the country's future.

The way I see things going is that with the cuts to public services (eyes should be on what happens with the NHS who I work for), the rise in food/fuel costs and static wages, graduates and non-graduates alike are very soon not going to be able to afford to be economically active beyond basic necessities unless something changes drastically.

[slothrop]

All you care about is money eh??

How about wanting to learn? being interested in a subject?

I'm going to study Music Technology - am i fuck gonna end up witha high paying job, but i'd rather earn less doing what I love not earn shit loads at an investment bank!

Not to mention that if you make having a career plan worked out beforehand a prerequisite for going to university then university basically becomes step one in the career plan - you turn up, do enough to get your 2:1, get good looking stuff on your CV and then go and get the job. Which is a great system for producing mid-level corporate drones, but likely to put off the sort of 'get educated first, figure out what to do later' people who are actually going to make a serious impact on the world...

[hugh]

But to be honest, if youre going to uni and getting a qualification then you should be getting a high paid job, almost straight away, and therefore you should be able to easily pay your debts. if youre going to not get a decent job or study something fucking useless so you can just get trashed everynight then youre obviously not going to pay back your debt, so if these debts dont get paid back theres only one thing to do...up the tuition fees so that useless wankers dont go to uni for the sake of partying and wasting a few years of your life, leaving only the dedicated people who actually make use of their uni experience who will inveitably pay off thier debt once they start earning the big monies. chances are, if youre complaining, youre going to uni for no reason or you dont see your uni education giving you a good job...so why bother going?

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.
1 - This bill makes Education a privelege to those who can afford it
2 - This bill makes poorer people who may have been encouraged to go to uni now really have to think twice about whether they want to commit
3 - This bill discriminates against the poor and encourages the middle and upper classes - it increases the educational divide and eventually this will have an even greater impact on the poverty divide.
4 - Regarding your point - you assume every single student is doing a trashy good for nothing course and that every single student who qualifies from university is just going to "fall" into a good job. This depends on the type of career you want to pursue and whether the type of career you want to pursue generally has high earnings. For example, I am a year 2 Pharmaceutical Chemistry student - I have a fuck ton of work and am in Uni all the time. When I leave uni I want to get into either genetic research of drug action research. Neither of these career paths will have a particularly high payout.

If the problem was that too many people were going to universities and studying "mickey mouse" courses, then the solution lied with the Government in finding a way to encourage these youngsters into perhaps choosing a wiser career path. It's simply not fair to take a cack-handed swipe at the issue by trying to put poorer people off going to university.
Anyway, the lack of liberal thinking on this board is starting to piss me off tbh. It's almost like reading the daily mail.

Right, well first of all it's not discriminating at all to poorer people, thats like saying car insurance is discriminating against poorer people, but its not. the fact is, its put higher on young drivers for a reason...and as such is discourages a lot of drivers from buying a cheap car, insuring it and consequently driving it to their death at 95mph, the same can be applied to university.
and im in now way implying that people are going to 'fall' into a good job, but if their qualifications ultimately amount to a job that does not even need such qualifications, then they arent exactly helping. i know its not easy to get a job from uni, but its not easy to get a job from anywhere! Also if youre two career paths arent going to have a particularly high payout, why would you waste years of your life and money to only come out with debt and a low pay job, when you could simply spend those years gaining money and working your way up? Basically, people should only be going to university if theyre aiming for a particular high pay job, that requires a particular degree, its as simple as that. anyone who is going 'for a laugh' or to ultimately end up in a job where they wont even be able to pay off the debt theyve got themselves into simply shouldnt be allowed to go.

and if you want a debate, expect there to be different opinions, i have mine and you have yours. Dont come across as a pretentious arsehole

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.

saying 'i disagree' works just as well...so maybe you 'get a clue' before coming into this thread and slandering everything as bullshit and believeing that your views are the only ones that exist. try harder if you want to get through to me, dont get all self-righteous.

Educational right has nothing to do with insurance policies so I have absolutely no idea where you are drawing that analogy from. It sounds to me like you actually support the bill and don't seem to think it's a problem that a political party has completely lied and snaked it's way into a powerful position.
Money is always an issue, and if anyone is coming across as pretentious it's you with your terrible attitude towards other peoples aims and goals. You have no idea what is going on inside the majority of students heads and to label them all the same due to a few stereotypes is ignorant. It makes you sound like you think you are better than Students.

Also if youre two career paths arent going to have a particularly high payout, why would you waste years of your life and money to only come out with debt and a low pay job, when you could simply spend those years gaining money and working your way up? Basically, people should only be going to university if theyre aiming for a particular high pay job, that requires a particular degree, its as simple as that. anyone who is going 'for a laugh' or to ultimately end up in a job where they wont even be able to pay off the debt theyve got themselves into simply shouldnt be allowed to go.

Not everyone is going for a laugh just because they might be doing a course that doesn't end up a job that pays well. Please try to understand this.
Furthermore, rich people will still be able to afford these courses and go onto a career that they enjoy due to the support of their family/whatever. Poor people will not. This is educational discrimination. I don't see how you don't understand that. The fact you have highlighted a perfect example of class discrimination whilst saying "it is not discrimination against the poor in your very first sentence" is just contradictory.

I won't apologise for being brash or coming across as anything. I am passionate about this and think the rest of the country should be too. Why the fuck should we have to put up with the bullshit and the lies? I think it's about time everyone got up off their fat arses and sent an almighty "FUCK YOU" to the government.

[Mortal]

But to be honest, if youre going to uni and getting a qualification then you should be getting a high paid job, almost straight away, and therefore you should be able to easily pay your debts. if youre going to not get a decent job or study something fucking useless so you can just get trashed everynight then youre obviously not going to pay back your debt, so if these debts dont get paid back theres only one thing to do...up the tuition fees so that useless wankers dont go to uni for the sake of partying and wasting a few years of your life, leaving only the dedicated people who actually make use of their uni experience who will inveitably pay off thier debt once they start earning the big monies. chances are, if youre complaining, youre going to uni for no reason or you dont see your uni education giving you a good job...so why bother going?

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.
1 - This bill makes Education a privelege to those who can afford it
2 - This bill makes poorer people who may have been encouraged to go to uni now really have to think twice about whether they want to commit
3 - This bill discriminates against the poor and encourages the middle and upper classes - it increases the educational divide and eventually this will have an even greater impact on the poverty divide.
4 - Regarding your point - you assume every single student is doing a trashy good for nothing course and that every single student who qualifies from university is just going to "fall" into a good job. This depends on the type of career you want to pursue and whether the type of career you want to pursue generally has high earnings. For example, I am a year 2 Pharmaceutical Chemistry student - I have a fuck ton of work and am in Uni all the time. When I leave uni I want to get into either genetic research of drug action research. Neither of these career paths will have a particularly high payout.

If the problem was that too many people were going to universities and studying "mickey mouse" courses, then the solution lied with the Government in finding a way to encourage these youngsters into perhaps choosing a wiser career path. It's simply not fair to take a cack-handed swipe at the issue by trying to put poorer people off going to university.
Anyway, the lack of liberal thinking on this board is starting to piss me off tbh. It's almost like reading the daily mail.

Right, well first of all it's not discriminating at all to poorer people, thats like saying car insurance is discriminating against poorer people, but its not. the fact is, its put higher on young drivers for a reason...and as such is discourages a lot of drivers from buying a cheap car, insuring it and consequently driving it to their death at 95mph, the same can be applied to university.
and im in now way implying that people are going to 'fall' into a good job, but if their qualifications ultimately amount to a job that does not even need such qualifications, then they arent exactly helping. i know its not easy to get a job from uni, but its not easy to get a job from anywhere! Also if youre two career paths arent going to have a particularly high payout, why would you waste years of your life and money to only come out with debt and a low pay job, when you could simply spend those years gaining money and working your way up? Basically, people should only be going to university if theyre aiming for a particular high pay job, that requires a particular degree, its as simple as that. anyone who is going 'for a laugh' or to ultimately end up in a job where they wont even be able to pay off the debt theyve got themselves into simply shouldnt be allowed to go.

and if you want a debate, expect there to be different opinions, i have mine and you have yours. Dont come across as a pretentious arsehole

Please get a clue about anything before you ever comment on a topic with such a high level of bullshit.

saying 'i disagree' works just as well...so maybe you 'get a clue' before coming into this thread and slandering everything as bullshit and believeing that your views are the only ones that exist. try harder if you want to get through to me, dont get all self-righteous.

Educational right has nothing to do with insurance policies so I have absolutely no idea where you are drawing that analogy from. It sounds to me like you actually support the bill and don't seem to think it's a problem that a political party has completely lied and snaked it's way into a powerful position.
Money is always an issue, and if anyone is coming across as pretentious it's you with your terrible attitude towards other peoples aims and goals. You have no idea what is going on inside the majority of students heads and to label them all the same due to a few stereotypes is ignorant. It makes you sound like you think you are better than Students.

Also if youre two career paths arent going to have a particularly high payout, why would you waste years of your life and money to only come out with debt and a low pay job, when you could simply spend those years gaining money and working your way up? Basically, people should only be going to university if theyre aiming for a particular high pay job, that requires a particular degree, its as simple as that. anyone who is going 'for a laugh' or to ultimately end up in a job where they wont even be able to pay off the debt theyve got themselves into simply shouldnt be allowed to go.

Not everyone is going for a laugh just because they might be doing a course that doesn't end up a job that pays well. Please try to understand this.
Furthermore, rich people will still be able to afford these courses and go onto a career that they enjoy due to the support of their family/whatever. Poor people will not. This is educational discrimination. I don't see how you don't understand that. The fact you have highlighted a perfect example of class discrimination whilst saying "it is not discrimination against the poor in your very first sentence" is just contradictory.

I won't apologise for being brash or coming across as anything. I am passionate about this and think the rest of the country should be too. Why the fuck should we have to put up with the bullshit and the lies? I think it's about time everyone got up off their fat arses and sent an almighty "FUCK YOU" to the government.

i dont support the bill at all. i just dont support the people who are whining about the bill because the simple fact is, if you can go to uni and get a well paying job, you can pay off those debts without a problem, wether you start out poor or not. However people will only complain if they feel they cannot pay off that debt and that it will shadow them for the rest of their life, and these are ultimately the people who are not making use of there qualifications, thats the simpliciy of my point and the very reason that i will not go to university. I personally think the governent are wankers for doing what they have done, yet there is also purpose behind it which i can relate to.

[Kochari]

i dont support the bill at all. i just dont support the people who are whining about the bill because the simple fact is, if you can go to uni and get a well paying job, you can pay off those debts without a problem, wether you start out poor or not. However people will only complain if they feel they cannot pay off that debt and that it will shadow them for the rest of their life, and these are ultimately the people who are not making use of there qualifications, thats the simpliciy of my point and the very reason that i will not go to university. I personally think the governent are wankers for doing what they have done, yet there is also purpose behind it which i can relate to.

Do you think my friend who got a degree in health and social care in order to look after people with serious mental and physical disabilities for very little money (therefore having the fees hanging over his head for potentially the rest of his life) is not making use of his qualifications? The fact is that a lot of essential jobs like his, and the research chemist who posted above, are not paid well at all. Money isnt everything man, some people go to university because they love the subject. Not everyone wants to be an investment banker.

[hugh]

i dont support the bill at all. i just dont support the people who are whining about the bill because the simple fact is, if you can go to uni and get a well paying job, you can pay off those debts without a problem, wether you start out poor or not. However people will only complain if they feel they cannot pay off that debt and that it will shadow them for the rest of their life, and these are ultimately the people who are not making use of there qualifications, thats the simpliciy of my point and the very reason that i will not go to university. I personally think the governent are wankers for doing what they have done, yet there is also purpose behind it which i can relate to.

Do you think my friend who got a degree in health and social care in order to look after people with serious mental and physical disabilities for very little money (therefore having the fees hanging over his head for potentially the rest of his life) is not making use of his qualifications? The fact is that a lot of essential jobs like his, and the research chemist who posted above, are not paid well at all. Money isnt everything man, some people go to university because they love the subject. Not everyone wants to be an investment banker.

I haven't actually mentioned this, but my sister is going through something similar. Right now she looks after young adults with severe levels of autism and varying levels of physical disability. For her to do this she had to go to university. It was a basic prerequesite, and now she barely earns £15,000 a year working full time. Now she wants to go back to university to do a similar degree that would allow her to work in a more specialist area, which would still, however, be low paid.
I hope you can see that sort of position this new bill puts people in.

[nowaysj]

Just a little input from an American on the subject - this is how our society was destroyed, now they are doing it to you. Don't let it happen. Don't let a quality education be the exclusive purview of the wealthy. This is how you dismantle a democracy.

[fuagofire]

I'd have allot more time for the students if they were attacking the labour party too. The fact that over the last decade they spent more money than they could steal off working people and introduced tuition fee's in the first place, encouraging everybody to go to uni and turning the places into buisnesses rather than institutions. Now there is no fucking money left and the debt aquired while studying is going to be peanuts compared to the next 50 years of paying the countries debts off - more tax and less shit to show for it. btw anyone who thought that the lib dems could actually follow through with their manifesto promises when a) they didn't win the election and b)if they had won, they obviosly hadn't looked at how much the govornment owe the chinese when they were writing it, realy need to get a grip with the reality of the situation. I actualy dont agree with fee rises - it should be free, but, there are too many people at uni - mostly studying a bullshit degree. And this whole thing about people who don't go to get a uni being somehow uncultured and unable to create decent art and if it wasn't for all the media studies students we would all be confined to the x-factor for entertianment is just crass.

[Kochari]

And this whole thing about people who don't go to get a uni being somehow uncultured and unable to create decent art and if it wasn't for all the media studies students we would all be confined to the x-factor for entertianment is just crass.

I agree, but the problem is that most jobs require a degree. Like you said, degree =/= artist, but to the world of work it seems to.

[BLAHBLAHJAH]

The main point about the fees I think, is that a supposedly civilised and enlightened government should recognize that investing in it's students is an investment in the country's future.

Probably the best contribution to this topic, most of the drivel by others is just selfish ranting

Also tards going on about students sapping money etc, fucking shut the fucking fuck up. Whilst at uni most of the scum bags back in the area I came from where busy having their 4th kid. Free housing and the works. Money doesn't bother me in this case, it's the fact that they're not into learning or education, yet are pathing the future of this shite country whilst simultaneously calling students bums for wanting to become educated. WOW see how easy it is to randomly scapegoat

About time to screw your fucking head on and figure out why this country is being brought down around us

Sinking ship, mutiny or drown

[clifford_-]

Problem is, everything is done for profit nowdays. Not the good of the poeple. Someone else said it right when they said the problem lies with unis/colleges being runs as businesses rather than places of learning.

[-dubson-]

Pretty obvious governments havent cared about any actual education for a verrrrry long time. Its either indoctrination or "make us monies".

[clifford_-]

Pretty obvious governments havent cared about any actual education for a verrrrry long time. Its either indoctrination or "make us monies".

Innit, as long as their budget/pay cheque is getting bigger, thats all they care about.

[fuagofire]

And this whole thing about people who don't go to get a uni being somehow uncultured and unable to create decent art and if it wasn't for all the media studies students we would all be confined to the x-factor for entertianment is just crass.

I agree, but the problem is that most jobs require a degree. Like you said, degree =/= artist, but to the world of work it seems to.

yeah, your right, but i have a feeling this is going to change. There is allways the OU, there really should be some system that makes it simpler to educate yourself in your spare time and take exams independently.

[fuagofire]

Pretty obvious governments havent cared about any actual education for a verrrrry long time. Its either indoctrination or "make us monies".

agreed, its not just uni though, primary and secondary schools tend to be a joke these days.

[BLAHBLAHJAH]

[fuagofire]

School was a bag of shite though, total lose lose situation. Classes slowed down by disruptive twats as well as the actual syllabus seeming to be capped for said thickos despite the illusion of 'different sets' etc. Could've done GCSEs age 12 and get on with it from there

I took over a year out of school just to watch dinner time Diagnosis Murder
(LOL I really did)

yeah, it's got even worse since you and i left.

[hugh]

I'd have allot more time for the students if they were attacking the labour party too. The fact that over the last decade they spent more money than they could steal off working people and introduced tuition fee's in the first place, encouraging everybody to go to uni and turning the places into buisnesses rather than institutions. Now there is no fucking money left and the debt aquired while studying is going to be peanuts compared to the next 50 years of paying the countries debts off - more tax and less shit to show for it. btw anyone who thought that the lib dems could actually follow through with their manifesto promises when a) they didn't win the election and b)if they had won, they obviosly hadn't looked at how much the govornment owe the chinese when they were writing it, realy need to get a grip with the reality of the situation. I actualy dont agree with fee rises - it should be free, but, there are too many people at uni - mostly studying a bullshit degree. And this whole thing about people who don't go to get a uni being somehow uncultured and unable to create decent art and if it wasn't for all the media studies students we would all be confined to the x-factor for entertianment is just crass.

My uncle is a Physics Professor at Zurich University and used to work in England and has a lot of ties to the UK.
Every single colleague he knows that worked in England during the new Labour years said that the work Blair and Brown did to make university more accessible and to increase pay towards teachers was the single greatest advantage to the educational system they have ever seen.
It's far easier to blame the banks for this shitty situation everyone is in. And it is correct, too.
Don't let history rewrite itself to suit your needs!

[cosmic_surgeon]

Dual thumbs in the air for all the corporate tax evaders - and to quote Bill "I bet you sleep like fuckin' babies at night, don't you".

WE'R ALL IN TIHZ 2GETHr.

fuck this government.

Problem is, everything is done for profit nowdays. Not the good of the poeple. Someone else said it right when they said the problem lies with unis/colleges being runs as businesses rather than places of learning.

had this discussion with a mate of mine doing economics. he couldn't see that profit = progress just doesn't work in every domain of human life. the goods an education ought to cultivate are not the same goods a business ought to cultivate. money and learning are two worlds which are doomed to conflict whenever they are thrown together.

a professor I am acquainted with (who spent 40 years working to improve education) was telling me about how privatising exam boards has led to decreased quality in education standards. because they're trying to sell services to turn a profit, not to bring out the gifts of young people, it means they make their exams easier and sell them on the basis of "you'll get a greater number of A's with us" instead of "our exams will actually challenge your students and push them to work hard".