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Of course I've noticed that the bass music scene is quite male dominated, but it's never really bothered me. I feel waaay more comfortable in somewhere like Fabric than Tiger bloody Tiger. I like that I don’t have to be dressed up in heels and shit to get into a dubstep night. Yes, the arse grab whilst walking through a crowd does happen; that’s the same everywhere, but it does happen a lot less at dubstep nights. However, this may be because when I’m at a dubstep night it’s more likely that I’ll be with male friends and not dressed ‘provocatively’.

House nights are quite bad for getting pestered, in my experience. I was at Jaded not long ago and it was horrible. Even though I was with my male friend, (who I’m guessing people would just assume is my boyfriend) I got it bad. In the end I just left. I know I shouldn’t have to put up with it, but…I dunno, what can I do? I guess that’s quite a sad mindset to have.

Concerning the lack of female DJs/producers, I can’t comment. I think I probably would have gone into producing if I chose Music at GCSE. I really enjoyed using cubase and wasn’t half bad at it. I guess there were other subjects I wanted to do more…
/my two cents

noam wrote:you dont experience mens predatory exploits in reverse cos they dont exist.

You even been on the receiving end of a 'cougars' claws?

wub wrote:Electronic music generally means lots of time spent alone, shut away indoors, messing around with machines. This is just something that suits boys more than girls.

Sort-of-kind-of. I'd be interested to know whether women are particularly worse represented in DJing and production than in any other techy gadgety nerdy area - maths lecturing or stamp collecting or computer programming or astrophotography, and whether there are specific problems for women getting into dubstep production or DJing that wouldn't affect men - if new female DJs have trouble getting taken seriously or are expected to 'look the part' more or whatever.

Likewise if women are being intimidated away from nights because they're into the music but don't like leering blokes copping a feel when they walk past then it's a problem with the scene, if they don't like the nights because it's all thrashy noise and moshing or geeky blokes nodding their heads and saying "oh yeah that clave sound is very El-B" where they'd rather be dancing to some fun R&B with their mates then, well, there is a big concern there about how gender roles develop in society but I don't think it's something that the dubstep scene needs to worry about specifically.

noam wrote:i never gave it a value but it has implicit positive and negative connotations about someones character if in fact they do act like that... but in the context of what i was saying i'd equate it to objectification which is what men are often accused of, especially in this instance

yh but it's only people who aren't able to judge someone's character from their trainers who call it objectification.

people didn't accuse sherlock holmes of objectification when he solved murders from the tiniest detail of clothing.

noam wrote:i agree to some extent

no one has ever stopped girls/women performing, if you're going to talk about Jazz in the 20's its a negligible example because its such an outdated one, PLUS some of the most famous jazz singers of all time have been women, and the 20's was the START of women's social liberation, drawing an analogy based on the gender roles of men and women then inevitably draws a response that those roles were in the process of being remolded

you dont experience mens predatory exploits in reverse cos they dont exist, but women have certain social behaviours which are just as malicious, to both girls and boys, maybe all your girl friends are enlightened and never exhibit the slightest bit of hostility towards othre girls in raves, or never judge boys at nights by their trainers/looks... it might be programmed but its programmed by PEOPLE, not some elusive masculine network of female suppression

i do agree though, that if you look at influences, that girls are seemingly limited from a young age, but only in as much as boys aren't encouraged to play with barbies or make clothes

I can think of a lot of female jazz singers (though my point was more aimed at the experiences of my parents in the 50s and 60s than the 20s... my Dad's a jazz drummer)... women have always been encouraged to sing (as they are now, especially other people's songs) - I'm pointing out that the lack of instrumentalists (whether that be synth geeks, guitarists or saxophonists) hasn't changed much since those times despite society having been through a 'feminist revolution'.

The "songbird" has always been an accepted female archetype, but the "musician" is generally expected to be male. I thought the rise of bedroom production might have evened that out some more, but I can't see too much evidence of that outside pop (Little Boots etc), which has always been a female-friendly area because of the marketing potential of a pretty girl. When it comes to anything but singing (and classical/orchestral instruments that require possibly expensive parental support from primary school age), girls are woefully underrepresented.

Agree that men aren't generally encouraged to make clothes as youngsters, though I can't say I know too many girls that were either, except for doing Textiles homework on anyway. I know a lot that were encouraged to obsess over putting outfits together (learning about clashes etc), but not too many that used to spend their teenage years actually making clothes instead of trawling H&M... out of the fashionistas I know (my house used to be entirely LCF/St Martins students except me), the girls have graduated and gone into other industries (both Music PR... professional gossipping which doesn't require much that they learnt at uni and though they both love it, not an industry where the 'masses' can expect to find employment).... only the guy has gone on to actually design clothes for a living... but he was making clothes at home when he was 14 whilst the girls were learning what to order in Starbucks and how many fingers to let their first boyfriend use.

As with another stereotypical female "skill", cooking, once it gets into the workplace it gets masculinised... home cooking is done by Mum in her floral pinny, but the "Chef" is generally a man with a big, important hat.

Girls can be just as horrible as boys, this is absolutely true... feminism has nothing to do with being a nice person or making the genders unrealistically identical, it's about giving everyone the same chance to chase a fulfilling life; it's certainly not about allowing them to live in a vaccuum where nobody ever insults each other. There's quite a difference between a girl giving you a dirty look or calling you an ugly bastard and a strange man, most likely a lot stronger than you, trying to brush against your cooch. One is unpleasant, the other is deeply unpleasant and absolutely threatening whether intended or not. We all make snap appraisals of each other based on appearance... that's part of being human and I doubt any of us could stop if we tried, but I'm sure we can raise our kids to respect each other's physical boundaries and not swagger around clubs as if minor sexual assault is suddenly OK after a couple of drinks.

I'm equally not claiming innocence from overstepping the mark as a man in the past. I grew up in the same society as everyone else and, shit, I'm as succeptable to a pretty girl and the lure of being "on top" as anyone (how I ended up living with fashionistas and why I'm stressing about the new girl who's far more successful than me) ... that's not a reason to not want better for future generations. If I ever have a daughter she's going to grow into the best woman that ever lived*.



*and terminally embarrassed of her Dad who keeps writing essays instead of getting on with his dayjob.

Pedro Sánchez wrote:

noam wrote:you dont experience mens predatory exploits in reverse cos they dont exist.

You even been on the receiving end of a 'cougars' claws?

unfortunately no

magma wrote: I can think of a lot of female jazz singers (though my point was more aimed at the experiences of my parents in the 50s and 60s than the 20s... my Dad's a jazz drummer)... women have always been encouraged to sing (as they are now, especially other people's songs) - I'm pointing out that the lack of instrumentalists (whether that be synth geeks, guitarists or saxophonists) hasn't changed much since those times despite society having been through a 'feminist revolution'.

Girls can be just as horrible as boys, this is absolutely true... feminism has nothing to do with being a nice person or making the genders unrealistically identical, it's about giving everyone the same chance to chase a fulfilling life; it's certainly not about allowing them to live in a vaccuum where nobody ever insults each other. There's quite a difference between a girl giving you a dirty look or calling you an ugly bastard and a strange man, most likely a lot stronger than you, trying to brush against your cooch. One is unpleasant, the other is deeply unpleasant and absolutely threatening whether intended or not. We all make snap appraisals of each other based on appearance... that's part of being human and I doubt any of us could stop if we tried, but I'm sure we can raise our kids to respect each other's physical boundaries and not swagger around clubs as if minor sexual assault is suddenly OK after a couple of drinks.

yea please dont mistake what im saying as a denial or worse an endorsement of behaviour based on the principles that women can act like shits aswell, thats really not what i meant

my point is there has to be recognition of the fact that in some cases it appears that feminism is arguing for something which should really be umbrella'd by basic common courtesy

not touchin up a girl in a club who's not interested in you at all is down to common sense and isn't acceptable behaviour in our society no matter how much it may occur in a club environment, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'll disagree with that

those points are outside the sphere of a feminist argument to me

the points that are worth exploring are whether women are receiving equal pay for doing the same job, and whether women are allowed equal opportunity to pursue certain careers, passtimes and goals

there's no denying that women often hit a glass ceiling in terms of their careers and their paypackets, the numerous evidence in favour of this speaks for itself

as to why girls dont produce as much music as boys do, thats something girls have to WANT to get into themselves, its not as if the opportunity isn't out there for them to do it, and in my opinion, isn't an argument which should come under the sphere of feminism - the opportunity simply IS there, and its no ones fault but the individual if they don't pursue it

women in edm are admired by all for their scarcity [but not uniquely for this either], this should only inspire and encourage more women to pursue it on its own merits

we're now at an age where a female guitarist,or keyboardist, or drummer, or band are NOT unheard of, they might be rare but looking at it contextually this has only been a viable option for half a century, and no this doesn't mean we should stop striving to level the playing but its also not a sign that the playing field has been weighted against them maliciously in any way that needs further correcting, it just takes time for a societal change to even out...

noam wrote:yea please dont mistake what im saying as a denial or worse an endorsement of behaviour based on the principles that women can act like shits aswell, thats really not what i meant

my point is there has to be recognition of the fact that in some cases it appears that feminism is arguing for something which should really be umbrella'd by basic common courtesy

not touchin up a girl in a club who's not interested in you at all is down to common sense and isn't acceptable behaviour in our society no matter how much it may occur in a club environment, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'll disagree with that

those points are outside the sphere of a feminist argument to me

The fact that they still happen disproportionately to women rather than men suggests that they are a feminist issue. It's not "why aren't people a bit more decent to each other", it's "why are so many men not decent to women?"

as to why girls dont produce as much music as boys do, thats something girls have to WANT to get into themselves, its not as if the opportunity isn't out there for them to do it, and in my opinion, isn't an argument which should come under the sphere of feminism - the opportunity simply IS there, and its no ones fault but the individual if they don't pursue it

women in edm are admired by all for their scarcity [but not uniquely for this either], this should only inspire and encourage more women to pursue it on its own merits

we're now at an age where a female guitarist,or keyboardist, or drummer, or band are NOT unheard of, they might be rare but looking at it contextually this has only been a viable option for half a century, and no this doesn't mean we should stop striving to level the playing but its also not a sign that the playing field has been weighted against them maliciously in any way that needs further correcting, it just takes time for a societal change to even out...

Dunno, it's kind of a tough one this. There's definitely more going on than just the dubstep scene closing ranks when women try to get on producing or playing out, but I think there is a big big cultural bias that tells kids that messing around with technology or playing in a band or collecting loads of vinyl or knowing the Tempa back catalogue off by heart is a good / normal thing for boys but not for girls... although again, that isn't something that I'd expect the dubstep scene to deal with single handedly...

O Tumma Tum Ladin wrote:the only purpose of feminist critical theory is to break down gender boundaries to the point where most men are gay enough to let these carol anne duffalikes fuck them with a strap on.

Probably the funniest thing ever written on DSF.

Pedro Sánchez wrote:

noam wrote:you dont experience mens predatory exploits in reverse cos they dont exist.

You even been on the receiving end of a 'cougars' claws?

Remember being on a dance floor before, some hen party behind me, dragged me in to their circle, gyrating on me and grabbing me. Would've been DTF if they were milves, BUT THEY WEREN'T. My 6 foot 5 friend noticed my plight, reached over and into their circle and literally pulled me out by my collar. Shit, Nightcrawlers - Push The Feeling On was playing. What does that tell you about women and dance music? Dunno man.

EDIT: It was MK's Dub Of Doom remix if that adds anything.

This really drunk woman once cornered me outside a pub toilet, she says "WANNA COME BACK TO MY PLACE??"
Me: "not really"
Her (whispering seductively): "I'm 57..."
Me (whispering not so seductively): "I'm 17..."

slothrop wrote:

noam wrote:yea please dont mistake what im saying as a denial or worse an endorsement of behaviour based on the principles that women can act like shits aswell, thats really not what i meant

my point is there has to be recognition of the fact that in some cases it appears that feminism is arguing for something which should really be umbrella'd by basic common courtesy

not touchin up a girl in a club who's not interested in you at all is down to common sense and isn't acceptable behaviour in our society no matter how much it may occur in a club environment, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'll disagree with that

those points are outside the sphere of a feminist argument to me

The fact that they still happen disproportionately to women rather than men suggests that they are a feminist issue. It's not "why aren't people a bit more decent to each other", it's "why are so many men not decent to women?"

i disagree for the reason that male decency in behaviour isn't limited to their behaviour towards women, its not a problem of men with women, its a problem with the way that society works and what is deemed acceptable behaviour within certain sectors of it

it might be an unpopular view but the same men who think its cool to grope women in clubs fall into the catagory of inappropriate behavioural issues, are the same men who commit rapes and are violent, homophobic and racist - its not a problem strictly to do with men and women, its a problem with how people interact. Yes there are certainly issues with how types of men interact with women, but i think its part of a larger problem and that was my point, its not something that will be solved by feminism, though feminist goals will be appeased by tackling its problems, if that makes sense... as i said before i believe the real goal of feminist ideas should be targeted at the area's where there is real possibility for actual, enforced change

Slothrop wrote:

as to why girls dont produce as much music as boys do, thats something girls have to WANT to get into themselves, its not as if the opportunity isn't out there for them to do it, and in my opinion, isn't an argument which should come under the sphere of feminism - the opportunity simply IS there, and its no ones fault but the individual if they don't pursue it

women in edm are admired by all for their scarcity [but not uniquely for this either], this should only inspire and encourage more women to pursue it on its own merits

we're now at an age where a female guitarist,or keyboardist, or drummer, or band are NOT unheard of, they might be rare but looking at it contextually this has only been a viable option for half a century, and no this doesn't mean we should stop striving to level the playing but its also not a sign that the playing field has been weighted against them maliciously in any way that needs further correcting, it just takes time for a societal change to even out...

Dunno, it's kind of a tough one this. There's definitely more going on than just the dubstep scene closing ranks when women try to get on producing or playing out, but I think there is a big big cultural bias that tells kids that messing around with technology or playing in a band or collecting loads of vinyl or knowing the Tempa back catalogue off by heart is a good / normal thing for boys but not for girls... although again, that isn't something that I'd expect the dubstep scene to deal with single handedly...

i think its frowned upon for boys too, its seen as geekish and whatnot... the alternative is the rockstar DJ which is a masculine, iconic figure; thats something that will only change by women gettin involved more with the scene, producing music, running nights, taking it upon themselves to push toward their own goals

i really dont think there's anything stopping them in that respect

boys latching onto an image doesn't equate to girls not being able to participate, there might be some other reason maybe??

Kochari wrote:This really drunk woman once cornered me outside a pub toilet, she says "WANNA COME BACK TO MY PLACE??"
Me: "not really"
Her (whispering seductively): "I'm 57..."
Me (whispering not so seductively): "I'm 17..."

if the feminists have their way you'll be propositioned implicitly (as a subversion of female silencing) and then bent over a unisex urinal (now used for shitting in)

your screams will be muffled by her quorn gloves as she slides her prosthetic freedom penis into your agape arsehole.

O Tumma Tum Ladin wrote:your screams will be muffled by her quorn gloves as she slides her prosthetic freedom penis into your agape arsehole.

fuck i was aroused.

how liberal of me

lololol

noam wrote:fuck i was aroused.

how liberal of me

O Tumma Tum Ladin wrote:

lololol

you cant see it but he was wearing these at the same to subvert the movement

I'm not really sure why the article particularly picks on dance music for this differential between men and women. It happens everywhere in life. I'm not sure why it thinks that dance music should be any better.

But focusing on this area, and other areas related in a similarly geeky way (e.g. physics, electronics, stamp collecting, comic artists) could the difference simply be that women are in general more pragmatic than men? That is, turning doodling into a career (ie drawing comics) on which one can live is a lot less likely than becoming an accountant. So purely from a pragmatic point of view, it's a no brainer that training to become an accountant is a better bet than trying to become a top DJ. Now, how much of this is due to enviroment/upbringing and how much of it is due to genetic inheritances, we'll probably never know. From a genetic viewpoint, women invest a lot of energy into producing offspring. So from a selection viewpoint, I would propose that women who take less risky career choices (ie gathering vs hunting) might have had offspring with a better chance of survival, which would have further propagated their genes with that inclination.

I don't think that women are being actively excluded from positions of prominence in dance music. On the contrary, I would've thought that the gender anonymity that can come with the use of producer names would do away with any differences. I also doubt that women are any less capable in beatmatching, so from an ability viewpoint there's no real reason. However, I guess less women give it a go to begin with. Which comes back to my suggestion of natural pragmatism.

What about you women on this forum? Do you produce or DJ? I think that none of you do, apart from Zena. What makes you less inclined/interested to get into it? Do you think it's to do with environmental factors when you were growing up?

FInally, I just want to say that I could probably do with women being more predatory.