ANTI-WAR DUB - IN THE STREETS

[shonky]

So pulling out troops is the first step. Rebuilding Iraq, trying to stabilize the govt and encouraging democracy has to be done. How? The UN, economic aid etc... It would be best done by communities, social groups, activists and other self organized groups.

I don't think pulling out troops is going to help that much. There's a lot of tribal and religious rivalries going on which aren't going to go away soon and you can't rebuild in a civil war. I also don't really see how you can have an effective democracy in a warzone either.

It's not something that's going to be as easy as removing the troops, as the troops don't seem to be the main targets of the bombers.

[metalboxproducts]

So pulling out troops is the first step. Rebuilding Iraq, trying to stabilize the govt and encouraging democracy has to be done. How? The UN, economic aid etc... It would be best done by communities, social groups, activists and other self organized groups.

I don't think pulling out troops is going to help that much. There's a lot of tribal and religious rivalries going on which aren't going to go away soon and you can't rebuild in a civil war. I also don't really see how you can have an effective democracy in a warzone either.

It's not something that's going to be as easy as removing the troops, as the troops don't seem to be the main targets of the bombers.

Yeah it's quite a difficult situation. I think it's being discussed in very simplistic terms so far in this thread.

How are you any way?

EDIT

Not that anything said in this thread makes the slightest bit of difference to the situation.

[shonky]

So pulling out troops is the first step. Rebuilding Iraq, trying to stabilize the govt and encouraging democracy has to be done. How? The UN, economic aid etc... It would be best done by communities, social groups, activists and other self organized groups.

I don't think pulling out troops is going to help that much. There's a lot of tribal and religious rivalries going on which aren't going to go away soon and you can't rebuild in a civil war. I also don't really see how you can have an effective democracy in a warzone either.

It's not something that's going to be as easy as removing the troops, as the troops don't seem to be the main targets of the bombers.

Yeah it's quite a difficult situation. I think it's being discussed in very simplistic terms so far in this thread.

How are you any way?

EDIT

Not that anything said in this thread makes the slightest bit of difference to the situation.

I's fine

Probably should have read through the rest of it first, but seeing as nobody in a position of power is going to give a shit what's written here, or what appears on youtube or even if 2 million people march through london because they doing their landgrab shizzle, there does seem to be a certain pointlessness to it

Course you can vote them out, but then you just get the other fuckers don't you.

Same old same old. Shit will change if they try conscription though

[moving_ninja]

We will be filming the APEC summit which will be attended by Bush and other imperialists from all over the world here in Sydney in September.

Watch your back mate...

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 61,00.html

A friend of mine was arrested at a protest a while back in Melbourne(the one when people simultaneously shut down several ANZ banks), only to find out that the months leading up to it.. his phone and email had been tapped..

Upon arrest he was held in a metal cubicle with room only to stand or sit it in one place.. and a single glass wall for interrogation.

He was one of the first people in Australia against whom the 'anti-terror' law were used based on actions during a protest.

Make no mistake mate... if you matter.. they know!

[westernsynthetics]

We will be filming the APEC summit which will be attended by Bush and other imperialists from all over the world here in Sydney in September.

Watch your back mate...

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 61,00.html

A friend of mine was arrested at a protest a while back in Melbourne(the one when people simultaneously shut down several ANZ banks), only to find out that the months leading up to it.. his phone and email had been tapped..

Upon arrest he was held in a metal cubicle with room only to stand or sit it in one place.. and a single glass wall for interrogation.

He was one of the first people in Australia against whom the 'anti-terror' law were used based on actions during a protest.

Make no mistake mate... if you matter.. they know!

well, im an active member of a Socialist Revolutionary organisation...so there is a good chance they do know who I am, but i doubt they would see me or our organisation as any sort of threat to security. Because we will be marching peacefully. But as you know, this wont stop them from locking us up for no good reason.

The trick is to know their rules and do our best to stay out of the lock up without Jeopardising our ability to express our collective rage at the Imperialist lords taking over the city.

They (The Cops) are more concerned with the Anarchists who always fuck up at events like this. No doubt the Anarchists will go off on their own little warpath smashing windows and throwing rocks aimlessly . The Anarchists are so completley selfish and self indulgent that they will jeapordise the saftey of the workers and students marching with them just to diplay their Anarchism. The MUA (Australian Marintime Workers Union) Have just recently this week joined the Stop Bush coalition. They will be marching at APEC because according to the MUA: "Peace is Union Business". The MUA know a thing or two about confrentations with the ruling class and the cops. They have over a hunderd years of militant action to back up their reputaion as Australia's most radical Union (google Australian Wharfies Strike in 1998) so the Anarchists will be outnumbered by class concious workers and students marching in solidarity against Bush & Howards imperialist agenda. The Anarchists will be on their own, no doubt some of them on their own in the city lock up. With charges to go with it.

Thanks for the article mate, I will be watching my back as best I can.

[djshiva]

hey now. i am an anarchist and i am not a rock thrower. don't fall into stereotypes when the stereotypes can (and do) get levelled at you just as easily.

are there people who misinterpret anarchism and do dumb shit? absolutely. i have dealt with a few who put innocent people in harms way to accomplish their own agendas, and i took them to task for it because they acted selfishly, and denied other people the right to self-determination and the ability to choose the level of their own involvement. but i have known just as many self-proclaimed socialists who act like money-grubbing capitalist pigs, and i don't paint all socialists with the same brush.

at the end of the day, our goals are still the same: to break the yoke of the capitalist imperial machine. or are we reading different manifestos?

and p.s. to accuse all anarchists of not being class conscious is just ignorant. i am gonna guess you have run into some idiots, and so have i. but we need to find some understanding here, amongst those who see the big picture, rather than throwing figurative stones at people whose goals may be more similar than each of us thinks. stick to "isms" at your own peril, my friend. it drives a wedge, and that's exactly what those in power want.

in solidarity...

[westernsynthetics]

hey now. i am an anarchist and i am not a rock thrower. don't fall into stereotypes when the stereotypes can (and do) get levelled at you just as easily.

are there people who misinterpret anarchism and do dumb shit? absolutely. i have dealt with a few who put innocent people in harms way to accomplish their own agendas, and i took them to task for it because they acted selfishly, and denied other people the right to self-determination and the ability to choose the level of their own involvement. but i have known just as many self-proclaimed socialists who act like money-grubbing capitalist pigs, and i don't paint all socialists with the same brush.

at the end of the day, our goals are still the same: to break the yoke of the capitalist imperial machine. or are we reading different manifestos?

and p.s. to accuse all anarchists of not being class conscious is just ignorant. i am gonna guess you have run into some idiots, and so have i. but we need to find some understanding here, amongst those who see the big picture, rather than throwing figurative stones at people whose goals may be more similar than each of us thinks. stick to "isms" at your own peril, my friend. it drives a wedge, and that's exactly what those in power want.

in solidarity...

sorry didnt mean to generalise....should have said "some Anarchists"

And I did not mean to come across as saying that Anarchists are not class concious, i dont think that at all. So sorry on those fronts...

Marxists & Anarchists goals are the same in that we want Revolution and an end to Capitalism. After that our goals are very different... Marxists and Anarchists have very different ideas in releation to the State. But this is a broader political discussion that will kill this nice little Anti - War thread, hehe but im more than happy to talk to you on msn or something about this

And as for isim's mine is Revolutionary Marxisim. (its kind of an oxy moron because Marxisim is ONLY revolutionary but there have been plenty of self proclaimed Marxists over the years who have held reformist/parliamentary politics). Marxisim is the only way to drive a wedge between the people in power (The Ruling Class). Thats what we as Marxist's want. Revolution from below...not from above.

In Solidarity.

[esfandyar]

western, you are right in saying this thread is getting way off on a tangent, but I wanted to add my piece in defense of the anarchists.

For one, saying the anarchists are provoking violence is kind of meaningless. The pigs come dressed ready for violence even if its a peaceful demonstration, and often they provoke violence just so they are justified for the next demonstration.

Also, socialists and communists off all stripes have in one time or one way or another engaged in violence that cumulatively is greater than all the smashed windows or rocks thrown at police during anarchist protest riots anarchists have sabatoged. Not to mention haven't you noticed that peaceful demonstrations haven't worked in the last 5 years? The people in power aren't listening. For some reason they are listening to the problems in Iraq because they have been using violence...

Violence isn't the real argument here though. Although it was mentioned earlier by yourself and sapphic_beats that anarchism and socialism have some parallels, its when the government is overthrown that the socialists are quick to replace the political system and use it to benefit themselves as they have always done. Socialists are interested in ceasing power, where anarchists are interested in a radical redistribution of power amongst the oppressed, working people, and the poor.

end rant..

[shonky]

I wish there was a word for "dickheads with authority issues who think that anyone that tells them to not do something stupid is a "fascist", get excessively drunk on Special Brew, vandalize anything in their path and goad the police into violence against them and all people in their vicinitiy".

Fuckwitism maybe?

Having said that, I've been told that a lot of these groups have been infiltrated by police and other government agents by people that have been involved in direct action for years on end so as to ensure things kick off badly and that future protests will not be tolerated. It's also quite helpful in making all media coverage of such events look like the idiots are the majority rather than a small percentage of the crowd so that the general public will view them as violent criminals rather than genuine protestors.

[westernsynthetics]

western, you are right in saying this thread is getting way off on a tangent, but I wanted to add my piece in defense of the anarchists.

For one, saying the anarchists are provoking violence is kind of meaningless. The pigs come dressed ready for violence even if its a peaceful demonstration, and often they provoke violence just so they are justified for the next demonstration.

Also, socialists and communists off all stripes have in one time or one way or another engaged in violence that cumulatively is greater than all the smashed windows or rocks thrown at police during anarchist protest riots anarchists have sabatoged. Not to mention haven't you noticed that peaceful demonstrations haven't worked in the last 5 years? The people in power aren't listening. For some reason they are listening to the problems in Iraq because they have been using violence...

Violence isn't the real argument here though. Although it was mentioned earlier by yourself and sapphic_beats that anarchism and socialism have some parallels, its when the government is overthrown that the socialists are quick to replace the political system and use it to benefit themselves as they have always done. Socialists are interested in ceasing power, where anarchists are interested in a radical redistribution of power amongst the oppressed, working people, and the poor.

end rant..

I am not a pacifist.

I understand that we need a violent overthrow of the state. But here in Australia we are not in a revolutionary period like in the 30's, so violence is futile and will only do damage to the movement...we are hugely outnumbered. And the people in power will never listen whether we are violent or not. Its the working class who will listen not the bouguise.

"Socialists are interested in ceasing power, where anarchists are interested in a radical redistribution of power amongst the oppressed, working people, and the poor."

Sorry mate but this is a distortion of Marxism.

Socialists aim to put power in the hand of the proleteriat. Socialists aim to smash the state apparatus and create a new workers state. Only then can the state begin to "wither away" and Socialism can be acheived. In Russia there was a Stalinist counter-revolution which took Russia down the path of State Capitalism. This is not Socialism.

But as I said can we continue this discussion elswhere?

[westernsynthetics]

another day, another bump for the heads in the nothern hemisphere.

[minusdegree]

protesting and socialist rhetoric solves nothing, troops are still in Iraq, Howard and Bush are still in charge. Im sure the people of Iraq appreciate the gesture though

Saying that protesting solves nothing is ignorant. Although the act of protesting often has no immediate outcome, it is the visible aspect of an active Anti-war MOVEMENT. Without which, we would still be in Vietnam

Point taken, Given time and enough public pressure, governments will change policy, but this usually leads to rebranding of unpopular policies or flavour of the month reactionary government

[westernsynthetics]

this was a picure taken by the murdoch newspaper "The Daily Telegraph" in Sydney of the Socialist Alternative Red Bloc contingent at the APEC demonstrations yesterday (8/09/07) here in Sydney. The Red bloc was the largest, most vocal and organised contingent on the march alongside the Marintime Workers Union. Over 10,000 marched in protest against the war, imperialism and in favour of workers rights and an end to the destruction of the environment. It was a truly inspiring day, one that I will never forget.

P.S. Im the guy at the front of the pic with the red beard and green shirt still buzzing from the from the amazing set courtesy of Benga, Moving Ninja & Mark Pritchard the night before!

[westernsynthetics]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6523D3JjtU

^^^Lunch With The PM filmclip

If you enjoyed the clip PLEASE nominate it in the 2007 Dubstep forum awards using the following link and details.
then copy and paste the below into this thread on the forum:http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28714


CLIP NAME – LUNCH WITH THE PM
LINK TO CLIP – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6523D3JjtU or http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... d=11484476
DIRECTOR NAME – KRISTY BROWN
AFFILIATIONS – WESTERNSYNTHETICS
MYSPACE/FACEBOOK/WEBSITE – http://www.subcontinentaldub.com www.myspace.com/westernsynthetics

It would be fantastic if an Anti-War clip could win this award!!!

Greatly appreciated peeps.
Kristy & Rhyece

[tempest]

Good luck mate...dope tune and clip, my vote was in there days ago

[westernsynthetics]

If you hate imperialism then please vote for this clip at the top, it certainly generated some healthy debate via this thread and the horrors of war are everywhere i look in Saigon (I am in Vietnam currently)

[nomorecomastep]

Secondly whether the war in iraq was morally right/wrong or illegal/legal is besides the point because from what I saw most of those protesters are demanding a withdrawl of troops, which is definitely not going to solve the current problem there.

To pull out know would be a gross derilction of our responsiblity's/morals.

Basic

We can't wash our hands of this shit.

Not exactly... we actually CAN wash our hands of this... Bay of Pigs, Korea, Vietnam, the first Iraq War... Iran Contas, Boliva, and on and on... in fact, over time, it's always been best to just pull out and stop the killing.

If we leave Iraq, there will be less killing than when we were there, this is undisputed by any parties involved. We are the focus of the insurgency, which is basically over now, and the major killing taking place in Iraq is actually between religious sects. We've created another Israel/Palestine conflict for years to come... maybe even centuries.

The only real solution, is to let them fight it out and when everything is destroyed and they start to love their kids more than they hate each other, we will be able to do something about it. Until then, we have blood on our hands. Every single American that hasn't run up on the White House lawn, and every single foreigner that hasn't come to aid this nation HERE while we fell to fascism has blood on their hands.

Westernsynthetics, the very reason that you are able to walk in Vietnam today is because American finally left... if we'd have stayed, we'd still be fighting that stupid war. We didn't even lose any ships at Tonkin. That entire conflict was fabricated like Iraq, World War's 1 and 2, Korea... all based on lies and False Flag terrorism... anyone here wanna dispute that FDR didn't see Pearl Harbor coming? He was well known to have been looking for a reason to get into World War II... and he embargo's and fucks Japan into attacking us.

Insert that same story into every war that has taken place since 1900.

[John Locke]

Secondly whether the war in iraq was morally right/wrong or illegal/legal is besides the point because from what I saw most of those protesters are demanding a withdrawl of troops, which is definitely not going to solve the current problem there.

To pull out know would be a gross derilction of our responsiblity's/morals.

Basic

We can't wash our hands of this shit.

Not exactly... we actually CAN wash our hands of this... Bay of Pigs, Korea, Vietnam, the first Iraq War... Iran Contas, Boliva, and on and on... in fact, over time, it's always been best to just pull out and stop the killing.

If we leave Iraq, there will be less killing than when we were there, this is undisputed by any parties involved. We are the focus of the insurgency, which is basically over now, and the major killing taking place in Iraq is actually between religious sects. We've created another Israel/Palestine conflict for years to come... maybe even centuries.

The only real solution, is to let them fight it out and when everything is destroyed and they start to love their kids more than they hate each other, we will be able to do something about it. Until then, we have blood on our hands. Every single American that hasn't run up on the White House lawn, and every single foreigner that hasn't come to aid this nation HERE while we fell to fascism has blood on their hands.

Westernsynthetics, the very reason that you are able to walk in Vietnam today is because American finally left... if we'd have stayed, we'd still be fighting that stupid war. We didn't even lose any ships at Tonkin. That entire conflict was fabricated like Iraq, World War's 1 and 2, Korea... all based on lies and False Flag terrorism... anyone here wanna dispute that FDR didn't see Pearl Harbor coming? He was well known to have been looking for a reason to get into World War II... and he embargo's and fucks Japan into attacking us.

Insert that same story into every war that has taken place since 1900.

the most on-point, important post i seen on this forum. ever.

but sadly what short memories we have...

not sure how i managed to completely miss this thread til now. i guess it doesnt look quite so promising from the name.