Parson...

parson · Post by **parson** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:56 pm

its not much of a duel if one group has a canon and you're not armed

epithet · Post by **epithet** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:59 pm

^^blame thalidomide and learn to type with your feet

guerillaeye · Post by **guerillaeye** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:19 pm

bashment dan wrote:i know this is quite unrelated to the discussion but heres a site i think y'all appreciate http://www.ted.com/
..tosses around loads of good ideas and deep thought

It shouldn't work, but it does. It works because all of knowledge is connected. Every so often it makes sense to emerge from the trenches we dig for a living, and ascend to a 30,000-foot view, where we see, to our astonishment, an intricately interconnected whole.

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:20 pm

Parson wrote:its not much of a duel if one group has a canon and you're not armed

granted for the human race was able to propagate itself without the contributions of women or oppressed peoples until the 1900's, give or take a century...

That being said...and gettin swooshy at the prospect of a good meat and potatoes esoteric conversation, I'm having a hard time with the idea of Reality being all encompassing, though it does. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to reconcile the two, since it seems that some Truth negates other Truth...

At what point does record keeping help to clarify? Does it every help to clarify? Even with the same lineage or collection of facts, the subjective nature of the populace can have several valid accounts of the same evidence.

And even still, is there a General Will and if so, why would it be beneficent? Is that where science kicks in and we do what we must for the survival of the species? I don't necessarily know if I believe a general will would function that way because the components are individuals who are generally self-interested...

But it would be a very optimistic approach if it were...

As an aside, I don't think we'll ever be able to "figure this out". I don't think appreciation is dependent on complete comprehension. I mean...isn't there something to be said for admiring the end result without having the inner workings laid out and bared?

I know I enjoyed Christmas a lot more when I believed in Santa Claus. And at night, the sky was never more mystical than when I thought if I were quiet enough, I'd be able to finally find the faeries...

parson · Post by **parson** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:20 pm

sometimes things look like they don't have any order and then from a different level you realize that it out it does have order

its like climbing a mountain. look around you see rocks and trees and bushes pressing around you and then you get above the treeline, and you see everything you just went through and it all like comes together. you see that it has a shape after all. sometimes it takes a long time to get high enough to see it but its there.

guerillaeye · Post by **guerillaeye** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:28 pm

Parson wrote:sometimes things look like they don't have any order and then later you find it out it does have order

its like climbing a mountain. look around you see rocks and trees and bushes pressing around and then when you get above the treeline, it all comes together. you see that it has a shape after all. sometimes it can take a long time to get high enough to see it but its there.

everything in the universe has an order.. the mayan calendar has shown the exact point of order of the cosmos for hundreds of thousands of years... what makes us think that we are any different than the stars in the sky, spinning a seemingly chaotic orbit that happens to be timed like the most precise clock to ever be?

selector.dub.u · Post by **selector.dub.u** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:30 pm

bellybelle wrote:
That being said...and gettin swooshy at the prospect of a good meat and potatoes esoteric conversation, I'm having a hard time with the idea of Reality being all encompassing, though it does. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to reconcile the two, since it seems that some Truth negates other Truth...

Is reality all encompassing or only now encompassing? Is TRUTH static?

bellybelle wrote:
At what point does record keeping help to clarify? Does it every help to clarify? Even with the same lineage or collection of facts, the subjective nature of the populace can have several valid accounts of the same evidence.

Sure- record keeping helps in organizing knowledge. It is not absolute
truth but it helps to keep records in order to observe patterns over time.
Differing accounts can be reconciled or synthesized to obtain a general idea about the past.

bellybelle wrote:
And even still, is there a General Will and if so, why would it be beneficent? Is that where science kicks in and we do what we must for the survival of the species? I don't necessarily know if I believe a general will would function that way because the components are individuals who are generally self-interested...

But it would be a very optimistic approach if it were...

thinking about this...

bellybelle wrote: As an aside, I don't think we'll ever be able to "figure this out". I don't think appreciation is dependent on complete comprehension. I mean...isn't there something to be said for admiring the end result without having the inner workings laid out and bared?

I know I enjoyed Christmas a lot more when I believed in Santa Claus. And at night, the sky was never more mystical than when I thought if I were quiet enough, I'd be able to finally find the faeries...

The never completely understanding it part makes sense to me.

Wishful thinking is useful at times (as you indicated) but, it harms humans if it is taken to the extreme... imo.

parson · Post by **parson** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:32 pm

there's not just timing, there's fine tuning

the cosmological constant has the universe fine tuned down to 120 decimal places

if it was budged from that at all, there would be no universe as we know it.

spooKs · Post by **spooKs** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:43 pm

Shonky wrote:More cider less jiggery-pokery

quoted for necessity.

shonky · Post by **shonky** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:46 pm

spooKs wrote:
Shonky wrote:More cider less jiggery-pokery
quoted for necessity.

They just keep harping on about the universe - think of the cider.

epithet · Post by **epithet** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:49 pm

nah truth isn't static, like everything it's relative to the observer.

General will is towards chaos. Entropy dictates that from the darkness we came and to it shall we return. Things run from hot to cold. Whats hot today will be cold tomorrow. Everything has a shelflife.

All you can ever do is hope to figure shit out for yourself, your own personal truth. Just don't expect others to buy into it cos it will only ever be your considered opinion.

We are the bug in the rug destined to spend our entire life in the world's most beautifully designed Persian rug without ever seeing the pattern from on high.

guerillaeye · Post by **guerillaeye** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:49 pm

ive been to a threshold of sorts and turned away.. ive been afraid to go beyond it.. afraid of ending the trip .. i still listen for santa, to some extent.

if you know it all.. if you figure it all out, then where do you go from there?
would you get depressed if you were marooned on a desert island for ever?
or would you be at your best?

i dont know yet.

selector.dub.u · Post by **selector.dub.u** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:51 pm

epithet wrote:nah truth isn't static, like everything it's relative to the observer.

General will is towards chaos. Entropy dictates that from the darkness we came and to it shall we return. Things run from hot to cold. Whats hot today will be cold tomorrow. Everything has a shelflife.

All you can ever do is hope to figure shit out for yourself, your own personal truth. Just don't expect others to buy into it cos it will only ever be your considered opinion.

We are the bug in the rug destined to spend our entire life in the world's most beautifully designed Persian rug without ever seeing the pattern from on high.

but we do get glimpses of the pattern of the rug occasionally

bellybelle · Post by **bellybelle** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:51 pm

selector.dub.u wrote:Is reality all encompassing or only now encompassing? Is TRUTH static?

it seems so small, yeah, but this has seriously stumped me because I admit I've always been thinking of Truth as static...

if it isn't....then won't it cease to exist as Truth, and is at best a collection of malleable truths? If its not static, does it stand alone outside of perception?

I feel like i'm missin' something important. A few somethings, actually. Anyone care to point me to a direction for further elucidation?

parson · Post by **parson** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:51 pm

epithet wrote:
All you can ever do is hope to figure shit out for yourself, your own personal truth. Just don't expect others to buy into it cos it will only ever be your considered opinion.

which is why i'm not offering truth. i say find it for yourself. its inside. all who have found it there will agree.

selector.dub.u · Post by **selector.dub.u** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:59 pm

bellybelle wrote:
selector.dub.u wrote:Is reality all encompassing or only now encompassing? Is TRUTH static?

it seems so small, yeah, but this has seriously stumped me because I admit I've always been thinking of Truth as static...

if it isn't....then won't it cease to exist as Truth, and is at best a collection of malleable truths? If its not static, does it stand alone outside of perception?

I feel like i'm missin' something important. A few somethings, actually. Anyone care to point me to a direction for further elucidation?

I understand that I think i have held both views at times. I mean some things seem to be consistently true on a day to day basis but other things ... not so much so...

As far as directions go.. i really like karl popper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper
Nassim Nicholas Taleb and most other skeptical empiricist's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Swan_(book)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

parson · Post by **parson** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:01 pm

warren did i mention that i love your avatar

selector.dub.u · Post by **selector.dub.u** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:02 pm

Parson wrote:warren did i mention that i love your avatar

thanks

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal

epithet · Post by **epithet** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:02 pm

bellybelle wrote:
selector.dub.u wrote:Is reality all encompassing or only now encompassing? Is TRUTH static?

it seems so small, yeah, but this has seriously stumped me because I admit I've always been thinking of Truth as static...

if it isn't....then won't it cease to exist as Truth, and is at best a collection of malleable truths? If its not static, does it stand alone outside of perception?

I feel like i'm missin' something important. A few somethings, actually. Anyone care to point me to a direction for further elucidation?

There's personal truth and absolute truth. One is you live in the rug, the other is you cant see the pattern of the rug.

so yes absolute truth exists beyond human percpetion.

Keep two truths in your pocket, and take them out according to the need of the moment.
Let one be: ‘For my sake was the world created.’
And the other: ‘I am dust and ashes.’”
hasidic proverb

parson · Post by **parson** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:03 pm

also i'm reading the popper article and its fascinatin

Parson...

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