digital release vs physical

[Pistonsbeneath]

I see... so now stealing isn't stealing?

Stealing IS, in fact stealing.

not everything is so fcking black and white...

I made a mix cd for four of my friends the other day who would never have discovered the likes of kode9, ramadanman, and modeselektor. I told them all about the dubstep genre, if they liked it (which the did) they will go out and buy it whether its digital or cd or vinyl.

are they stealing?? am I stealing???

or if they like it they will go out and steal it.

And yes, if you don't own the license to that tune, by purchase or by gift of the label/artist--you Stole. The assumption that they won't follow your poor example is a bad one. Why didn't you go and buy the tune digitally and give them a licensed copy of the tune? It's only a dollar or two, right?

I mean that is the argument for digital, is that it is cheaper... what difference does it make if it's on digital if you will just steal a vinyl rip?

And yes, it is black and white. If you gave our tunes away, you took money out of my pocket, the pocket of my partner, the pocket of the producer, the pocket of the distributor, etc.. who are you to decide for us how to promote our tunes?

Clubs are required to pay licensing fees or they will get shut down. Why?

If you don't like a law, lobby to have it changed. That doesn't mean you can just outright ignore the law.

its not black & white at all on a moral level....you can expose others to the music if youre using a vinyl rip in a mix....they may buy the record...if you make a mix in fact and give it out youve broken the law....and what if youve ripped your own record?

[human?]

If you don't put your releases out on digital, you have it coming then?

yes. every vinyl release is ripped and on the internet. (if its not, your shit must really suck) it is way way past the point of no return. so, some labels have decided to release digital, and grab some $ from their supporters.

others have chosen to stick with vinyl only releases, while the file sharing of their (good) tunes has made those out of print vinyl collectors items that go for even more money on ebay, which the labels also dont see a cut of... but finding value solely in $ on record sales obviously isnt their priority... and they are probably doing fine...

and then some labels have decided to just go completely digital.. with a much smaller overhead, these labels sometimes suck and are sometimes awesome, certain sites have exclusives, certain sites have no standards lol, its been a intensely liberating situation for musicians.

and then some lables put out sub par vinyls, and fold. distros too. so it goes.

the music game has changed big time, and for the better in all kinds of ways. the old model was lame, and was putting out alot of shitty music... music seems to me to have gotten alot better, parties seem to have gotten alot better...

its not digital VS physical... it lets get physical in digital times..

[human?]

If you don't like a law, lobby to have it changed. That doesn't mean you can just outright ignore the law.

F.T.P.

[Pistonsbeneath]

lets get physical

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXECBdPgEA

[bobsabarker]

this thread needs a demise. surface_tension, you provide no answers, so please stop.

[surface_tension]

edited.

Stealing is bad, mkay. That will be my last remark on this subject. Don't be that guy that I see playing our vinyl out on digital before it is available please.

[thinking]

lol sorry are you suggesting that I am either condoning or even encouraging illegal filesharing? You're out of your mind if you think so.

I have mainly been discussing the levels of dubstep record sales in this thread - although in my first post I did proffer a (brief) potential explanation for either the delay between physical and digital release, or lack of digital release whatsoever.


I'm leaving this thread now and, frankly, I'm beginning to wish I'd never got involved in the first place.

[djshiva]

I think we got a lil off topic with the stealing/no stealing/ what is stealing thing.

we all know it's a given that people are gonna grab tunes from torrents or other kinds of places. no one really argues that, we just differ on what the results of that should be. most of us i think agree it prolly won't stop.

but to me, the real debate about vinyl and digital is: is there any empirical evidence that withholding digi release for a time after the vinyl release actually has any results?

seriously, i am really curious.

in the end, labels have the right to do digi or not. it's really their call, i just happen to think they may be missing out if they don't.

in the end tho, not worth a buncha fighting and namecalling over. y'all been without your meds this week or what? catty bunch in this thread.

[etidorhpa]

This is the current state of Dubstep. If you are selling Dubstep and sell 500 copies, you have done the extraordinary. It's a tough racket.

500 being, pretty much break even point.

From a consumer perspective, the market has been flooded. Within the past year there has been an enormous amount of new dubstep labels, and whereas 2 years ago a dubstep fan would have bought every bit of vinyl available, right now the consumer has to be more picky about what they will and won't buy, i know i am.

All that labels can do it cater for both customers, the digital and the physical, or of course, as current trends suggest, just the digital.

And i have to admit, when i first saw digital only labels cropping up i assumed that these labels were those who couldn't obtain Pressing & distribution deal, i guess i was wrong there.

I'd be real interested to hear what kind of units digital only labels sell though, and what deal they cut with their artists. (Although probably not wholly appropriate to discuss on a forum....)

[seckle]

let the music do the talking, let the music do the talking, let the music do the talking. FFS!

understand that how you approach marketing, and branding your product is even more important than the actual selling process itself. we live in a world of media and consumerist overload. people are not stupid, and they can see a hustle coming at them from miles out. you can do more damage to your business in one unthought promotional decision than months of over hype could ever do.

some of the comments in this thread sound like hamburgers are being sold, and not music.

[surface_tension]

If you don't like a law, lobby to have it changed. That doesn't mean you can just outright ignore the law.

F.T.P.

Fuck the Producer?

I just think it a bit waste to come to a site full of artists and advocate art forgery.

some of the comments in this thread sound like hamburgers are being sold, and not music.

The difference being that you'd get arrested for stealing a hamburger, whereas people seem to be utterly indifferent to the stealing of someone's hard work. I'm more than just a little sad at this notion. This site has rules against posting such info as where to steal music for a reason, right?

I happen to agree with those rules.. but let's talk about why they exist for a second...

could it be because stealing music is a bad look for Dubstep?

[djshiva]

If you don't like a law, lobby to have it changed. That doesn't mean you can just outright ignore the law.

F.T.P.

Fuck the Producer?

I just think it a bit waste to come to a site full of artists and advocate art forgery.

ahem, i think he meant fuck the police. *sings NWA to herself*

could it be because stealing music is a bad look for Dubstep?

but we are a) still majorly digressing from the topic of this thread, and b) needing to come to terms with the futility of debating something we really cannot stop. all the lawsuits and shit in the world won't stop it. the most powerful music companies in the world have been trying to stop it in the most punitive ways, and it has barely put a dent in it.

so at this point, instead of lecturing people about the stealing, i think it's more important to make those who don't understand, get the fact that they are stealing from their "buddies", yanno? from good people who are actually very nice and generous if you make the attempt to get to know them. and i think that's something that, at least on a small level, the dubstep community HAS accomplished. but once the scene grows super large, it's harder. that doesn't mean it's not worth the effort.

[string]

If you don't like a law, lobby to have it changed. That doesn't mean you can just outright ignore the law.

F.T.P.

Fuck the Producer?

I just think it a bit waste to come to a site full of artists and advocate art forgery.

some of the comments in this thread sound like hamburgers are being sold, and not music.

The difference being that you'd get arrested for stealing a hamburger, whereas people seem to be utterly indifferent to the stealing of someone's hard work. I'm more than just a little sad at this notion. This site has rules against posting such info as where to steal music for a reason, right?

I happen to agree with those rules.. but let's talk about why they exist for a second...

could it be because stealing music is a bad look for Dubstep?

Since I've widely read that its pretty much impossible to make any money out of dubstep/drum&bass, why are you so bothered whether people buy your music?

Isn't it good enough for people to hear and enjoy it

Then in turn keep an eye out for future releases, goto yours gigs, etc

Why shut down someone for wanting to hear music??

Music isnt a product you can consume like a hamburger, gas, or an item for everyday use like a car, and in this day and age where every fucking thing we do we have to shell out money for, I'm happy music is the one thing we can easily obtain for free and enjoy

[surface_tension]

Since I've widely read that its pretty much impossible to make any money out of dubstep/drum&bass, why are you so bothered whether people buy your music?

Isn't it good enough for people to hear and enjoy it

Then in turn keep an eye out for future releases, goto yours gigs, etc

Why shut down someone for wanting to hear music??

Music isnt a product you can consume like a hamburger, gas, or an item for everyday use like a car, and in this day and age where every fucking thing we do we have to shell out money for, I'm happy music is the one thing we can easily obtain for free and enjoy

Because I am financially on the hook for that release. If it doesn't sell, there is a VERY real debt that, lo and behold, the Distributor will SUE ME FOR. They have lawyers to protect their interests. Why shouldn't a producer be able to try and make a living producing? Not saying that they will be successful at it, but they might be able to. The biggest thing stopping them would be the 100k people who download that tune instead of buying it.

I have seen a few label owners post in this thread. Not one of them has said it is ok to download music illegally. And none of them will most likely come in here and do so. Labels and artists spend a lot of time picking out outwork, the format, the release dates, who they promote to, how they promote, etc... all of that work immediately is lost when someone receives a file in an unintended format. Nothing beats showing up from work and having a package waiting on your doorstep... ripping that package open to reveal something you worked very hard to get.

I should cost real world money, because that real world money will make you a discerning buyer. You have finite resources, and as such, you should have finite access. I understand the argument about third world Eastern European countries and their lack of access as well.. the thing is, that is our dilemma as a label, to solve that problem and find a way to market ourselves there at a rate that doesn't sell out the interests of our artists. That is not your job as an end user to promote our tunes there.

You are free to disagree, but you aren't free to give our stuff away. It's stealing, and it's black and white... stealing. That said, you can think there are degrees of being wrong, depending on your moral code. Ours as a label says it is stealing.

[whygohome10]

look i buy all my music... about only 1 year ago i didnt buy any of it but it became counterproductive as far as finding new music so i started going to record shops to buy the cd's as i started to see it your way more.

however i still dont see whats wrong with buying a digital release (DRM Free mind you) and burning a copy for my friend who has never heard the shit (who also makes a habit to purchase their music)

anyways i like vinyl and dj's use vinyl and vinyl sounds cool (for some reason) and vinyl just is cool thats probably why everything is on vinyl... im done with this thread for sure

[djshiva]

[dusk governor]

/me yawns

[mod3rn0]

I think we got a lil off topic with the stealing/no stealing/ what is stealing thing.

but to me, the real debate about vinyl and digital is: is there any empirical evidence that withholding digi release for a time after the vinyl release actually has any results?

seriously, i am really curious.

in the end, labels have the right to do digi or not. it's really their call, i just happen to think they may be missing out if they don't.

yep, that was the things i wanted to discuss when i started the thread...i didn't mean to start all this fight about legal/illegal music downloads

[+torment+]

so what exactly was the point of this thread?


and has it been made?


just asking

[kwality]

This thread is already an epic, and there are pro's and con's on both sides. But I really think the attitude that all blogs/sites/torrents should be destroyed is naive, and a hangover from the 'old days' of selling music. Let's be real, if Sony/BMG/EMI etc can't manage it, what hope does a dubstep label have? If it were my music being shared, I'd tell them to take it down and give them some old/unreleased tunes along with gig dates/tour info.

If I steal a car, I'm taking away someone's car. If I 'steal' an mp3, who goes without that mp3? No one, it's just that no money changes hands either. If you watch a clip on youtube are you stealing it? What if it's a sketch from SNL?

I love vinyl and will always prefer it and spend money on it, but if I'm given the choice of having thousands of people hear my music or 300, I know what I'd prefer. Hell, 9 times out of 10 if someone sent me an email and asked for my music I'd happily send it to them, whether they were from Bombay or Boston.

If we all agree it makes sense to send tunes for free to dj's, radio shows, other producers, perhaps we have to also build in a certain 'leak ratio' or something? I see the business model for music turning towards having 1000 real fans who buy your tunes/t-shirts/tickets and also become real friends that you interact with. It's not as glamourous as being a platinum selling name, but if done properly and without too many hands in the pie it's probably just as lucrative.

At the end of the day though, I'll be making music for any format, any fee, any system. As long as people have ears and can feel bass I'll be honored any time someone listens to my music. Do I want to earn a living from it? More than you can imagine. But more than that I want to express myself. Plain and simple.