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Hey y'all, music theory newb here - why do you play the c# in the G minor 7b5 chord?

Isn't the c# outside of the key of G min?

nowaysj wrote:Hey y'all, music theory newb here - why do you play the c# in the G minor 7b5 chord?

Isn't the c# outside of the key of G min?

you're talking about a G Diminshed 7th chord and technically it's a D flat(flat 5).

C# is the sharp 4 and that would be B Spanish Phrygian(4th mode of Harmonic Minor) if it had a major 6.

Hiragana is not going to help our curious friend

pi pi pu pu

Technically, that would be a half diminished chord rather than a diminished because of the presence of the dominant 7 which would be F. It would be spelled enharmonically as D flat rather that C sharp because we are talking about the 5th and not the 4th here.

Did you play this chord? It has a nice sound to it particularly because when playing in root position, you have a minor 3rd from the root to the 3rd, a minor 3rd from the 3rd to the flat 5 and then a major 3rd from the flat 5 to the 7th. Try it with different inversions and perhaps throw a flat 9th in there for some more color.

EZ

Okay, please speak slowly for the retarded - This is a g minor chord though, right? But this chord is playing a note outside of the g minor key, is that correct?

nowaysj wrote:Okay, please speak slowly for the retarded - This is a g minor chord though, right? But this chord is playing a note outside of the g minor key, is that correct?

Yes, this is a g minor chord. A half diminished chord occurs naturally in a major scale as a chord or scale built off of the major 7th note of the scale. Therefore this Gm7b5 chord would be in the key of Ab.

Sorry if I'm still getting too technical. I'm not sure if I can explain it any better and I'm not sure how much you would want to get into harmonic function of such a chord. You can treat such a chord as just a minor chord but it can also function as substitution for a V chord as they are all of the same notes minus the root.

I guess I better stop here....

You've already received a lot of good explanations here... the only reason I am sticking my nose in, is because you are saying you are still having trouble grasping the concept.


As easy I can make it - think of it like this...


TRUE = in g minor, C#/Db does not exist in the key signature (after all, the key signature for g minor is Bb & Eb).

*However* - one can still modify chords within the key, given they are properly notated... AS in the Gmin7b5. That gives us all the instruction needed for this modified chord.

G minor = G Bb D (a minor chord is the root + minor 3rd + P5)
G minor 7 = G Bb D F (a minor 7 chord is the root + minor 3rd + P5 + natural 7th degree of scale)
G minor 7b5 = G Bb Db F (a minor 7 flat 5 chord is = root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, and natural 7th degree of scale)

Does that help at all?

I appreciate all the attempts at help, brothers. I'm afraid I've strayed a bit to far from my home land, as this music theory that so easily rolls off of your [fingers] is still a fair bit beyond me.

I appreciate the effort, I hope this does make sense some day!

nowaysj wrote:I appreciate all the attempts at help, brothers. I'm afraid I've strayed a bit to far from my home land, as this music theory that so easily rolls off of your [fingers] is still a fair bit beyond me.

I appreciate the effort, I hope this does make sense some day!

If none of this is really helping I suggest you take a 101 theory class and it will get you started with the way music works (can get very complicated) but without basic harmonic knowledge none of this will really make much sense.

nowaysj wrote:I appreciate all the attempts at help, brothers. I'm afraid I've strayed a bit to far from my home land, as this music theory that so easily rolls off of your [fingers] is still a fair bit beyond me.

I appreciate the effort, I hope this does make sense some day!

Have you got the concept of scales?

because if not then all the explaining these guys are doing is useless (to you)

Yeah, I've got scales... just barely. That's what started this question - wondering how the gminor chord above could use a note outside of the minor scale.

Inbetween your basic scales and the above tom foolery, though, is a space larger than I initially appreciated.

it's the b5 part that is doing it - that means 'flat 5'.

the '5' in a G minor scale is of course the D, so we're talking about D flat which is also C sharp.

this doesn't really fall under 'regular' G minor stuff, but you've got to notate these things one way or another, and if we're talking about a chord made of G,Bb,Db,F, then Gm7b5 is probably the closest fit for that particular selection of notes, so that's as good a name for it as any! you could equally call it a B minor with a 15th on the top, which might be more fitting if the rest of your track was in Bm...

There aren't really any hard and fast rules as to what is or isn't 'allowed' in harmonies, and you'll often find that certain chords could be part of 2 different scales - you can use whichever is the closest fit (or sits well with the rest of the piece)

yep-- w/ harmony, the only hard part is coming up with the relevant name, which is why people are correcting you in calling c# D flat. otherwise, you can play any notes you want to play-- you just gotta name 'em.

build it up from the bottom, in 1st position, starting with the root. Gm is G, Bb, D. add the minor 7, which is F. now diminish the 5th, so D becomes Db.

it's a great transitional chord, tons of implied movement in it; try playing Gm7 (G/Bb/D/F), then the chord in question (G/Bb/Db/F), then Fmaj7 (F/A/C/E). nice motion, eh? fiddly bits like diminished/augmented chords are excellent for implying melody-- and following melody.

nowaysj wrote:Okay, please speak slowly for the retarded - This is a g minor chord though, right? But this chord is playing a note outside of the g minor key, is that correct?

This.

Basically mate, you are allowed to have notes outside of any key in a melody, or in the chords you're using. They're called "accidentals" or "chromatic" notes, and often serve a few functions.

Either to add a bit of melodic tension as a "passing note" in a melody, like the blue note a lot of jazz and blues singers hit that bends up or down to a note that is actually in whatever key you're playing in. The longer you hold on an accidental the longer the dissonance, the longer the tension, the more satisfying it feels when you return to the key from the accidental.

They can also help to ease a transition into another key.

They can also serve just to add inharmony and dissonance if you're after some spooky kind of scary evil devil music.

serox wrote:

nowaysj wrote:Okay, please speak slowly for the retarded - This is a g minor chord though, right? But this chord is playing a note outside of the g minor key, is that correct?

This.

just because it says gminor doesn't mean the notes that "alter" the chord have to be in the g minor scale

its the g minor chord....mutated by the 7th note (in the scale) and the flat fifth (not in the scale)

if the 5th wasn't flat there would be no reason to notate it, because it is a part of the g minor chord originally. since you lowered the fifth one semitone, its notated

nowaysj wrote:Hey y'all, music theory newb here - why do you play the c# in the G minor 7b5 chord?

Isn't the c# outside of the key of G min?

You're all getting the wrong end of the stick in regards to his question: why do you play the c# in the G minor 7b5 chord?

Basically, you do it because it sounds good in certain contexts! No other reason!

Was thinking the scale police were going to bust down my door at any minute.

Thanks for the helps, all. Terekete, gonna go try that progression.