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Dubstep Roots - What are yours? The debate...
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:09 pm
by djslate
In the light of some recent posts I was just curious when people started listening to dubstep. I have been listening to garage for the last 10 years and it has been a real joy to watch a nascent, burgeoning scene really come to fruition - from the dark 2-step tracks of EL-B and Oris Jay to the tracks of Skream and the entourage of dubstep producers today. It seems that already people are beginning to pigeonhole dubstep in order to provide some sort of exclusivity on the genre.
I don't want to get the age old 'I've been listening since the beginning' debate going again but it seems bizarre that a number of people voice criticism of Skream producing a 'garage' track on his new album, and that this is somehow shocking, or even wrong. If one were to take this argument to a logical/illogical conclusion it could be posited that current producers are deviating from the garage roots and making 'dubstep' tracks!!
That said, having experienced the negativity and divisive nature of some parts of the garage community it is a blessing that dubstep as a genre has such a loyal and dedicated community of listeners. The good vibes would be ruined if people get caught up in mindless discussions on how the genre should be rigid and exclude tracks based on one factor; BPM.
Don't get me wrong. I believe the distinction is there for a reason but it shouldn't be a question of 'them and us' rather a realisation that garage is inherently bound to dubstep and this doesn't mean the former should be discarded like an old shell.
I love dubstep, but I also love garage. A few people should start investigating the roots before placing rigid strictures on the genre and claiming sole rights to dubstep. There will be people who argue with minor points of language in this post but that avoids the issue. All the intelligent ones will fully gauge the sentiments rather thatn the rudiments of my imperfect grammar.
SLATE
Re: Dubstep Roots - What are yours? The debate...
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:13 pm
by ramadanman
Djslate wrote:
I don't want to get the age old 'I've been listening since the beginning' debate going again but it seems bizarre that a number of people voice criticism of Skream producing a 'garage' track on his new album, and that this is somehow shocking, or even wrong. If one were to take this argument to a logical/illogical conclusion it could be posited that current producers are deviating from the garage roots and making 'dubstep' tracks!!
The album’s lowlight is "Summer Dreamz", purveying exactly the kind of contrived artistic values the rest of Skream’s album, with all its dancefloor might, eschews. Built around Rhodes chords, a 2step beat and a meandering live trumpet solo, it is eight minutes of "jazzy" coffee table fodder best left to late 90s dance producer longplayers.
from Blackdown's pitchfork column
most people criticism summer dreamz not because it's garagey (look at say the cyrus ep on tectonic, the first l-wiz on dub police, the skream southside / big apple releases). i personally like the track, but that's a different matter. [/quote]
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:23 pm
by dirty
Dnb and Garage
Grime
Dubstep
Liked the Darker side of all the genres, Just seems that Dubstep was what I was looking for the whole time!
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:27 pm
by dirty
I quite like the Summer Dreamz track.
I don't see what the fuss is about, Let the man put whatever he wants on his album.
He's still made bare quality 'dubstep' tunes
I think people look a bit too deeply into the music instead, take it for what it is!
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:30 pm
by elgato
This is a very difficult issue, but a good one to raise
Theres such a difficult balance to find between respect for the roots and an awareness of the music’s place, and avoiding backward-looking attitudes and sort of protectionism. It’s a good thing for people to bring their own take on the sound, and great things come from tearing up rule books, but it also seems important for people to be aware of the heritage. I think the main thing is for people (in all quarters) to stay humble, to understand that they don’t own the music, and that it should be to some degree treated with respect.
Its so complicated though, even as I write this I think of arguments (which I believe in) that contradict what I say.
my personal roots are going to see plasticman in bristol at the first subloaded on the advice of a friend, then getting Grime II and Dubstep Allstars I, then becoming obsessed with Plasticman/DMZ/Kode9/Horsepower and buying everything i could find. But having discovered it and spent a lot of time listening i became interested in its roots, and then upon starting to work backwards found there to be a ridiculous wealth of incredible music that way. i would recommend the same investigation to everyone
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:49 pm
by RFID
in a total random nutshell:
hiphop kid since '84 (Herbie Hancock-rockit/run dmc/ll cool j), late 80's gave way to acid and house revolution, then early rave roots (happy mondays / primal scream), enter breakbeat culture (Prodigy, Chem Bros, while still an avid hiphop fan), led to mid-90's uk rap (lewis parker, task force, Roots Manuva), then dnb (Bill Laswell Oscillations<--played bass on Herbie Hancock rockit, Goldie Timeless, LTJ Bukem), Year 2000/2001 Basment Jaxx, 2-Step, 2003 Grime, more dnb, speed garage, wiley, dizzy, bruza, plastikman, Capital J, Vexed, Scuba, Tempa, Etc...Etc...Etc...
(oh yeah, been makin beats since 1992)
nice to meetcha
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:08 pm
by joseph-j
I think going back to a proper garage tip is cool as. Repsect the roots and don't be snobby....
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:49 pm
by shonky
Joseph-J wrote:I think going back to a proper garage tip is cool as. Repsect the roots and don't be snobby....
Yes definitely. The riddims in the best garage make it the finest music ever in my book - mixing that with modern bass technologies might probably be the finest music in the world (Elemental's Soulfire is probably the best example I've heard this year). Some of the halfstep stuff's improving rhythm wise, but it does drop the funk for the weight on too many occassions where as I think it should have both to be effective.
I get the feeling that too many people came over with the darker, slower sound which is more suited to industrial and techstep heads who are less likely to appreciate music that comes from house (and there's been some well dismissive comments about house on this forum).
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:03 pm
by deamonds
old school garage (matt jam lamont, norris da boss windross) old school garage nation tapes (1998)
hip hop of the era (2000-2002)
grime/sublow/ukg (slimzee, gods gift, wiley, dizzy)(2003-2004)
instrumental grime/darker sides (platicman, darkside, cheffal)(2004)
hatcha n the d, early skream stuff(2005)
.......where we are now
and ive got to say, where we are now is the most i have ever enjoyed music, of any kind, and i have a very diverse choice (although not illustrated in this diagram i know, this was just the basis of how i took to dubstep)
Keep it coming
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:28 pm
by digital
deamonds wrote:and ive got to say, where we are now is the most i have ever enjoyed music, of any kind
Me too.
I love the way the scene is growing and the sound is diversing and taking different forms.
Grime and Garage brought me to find dubstep, and I always liked the darker side of other dance genres like house.
I think I was always kinda subconciously looking for dubstep. But I had no idea it would take over my life!
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:38 pm
by blackdown
Digital wrote:I think I was always kinda subconciously looking for dubstep. But I had no idea it would take over my life!
me too! i had no idea what effect Ghost 001 would do to the next 6 years of my life
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:40 pm
by jackquinox
RFID wrote: lewis parker, task force, Roots Manuva
Still gush when i listen to New Mic order that album is to fucking good, its a shame really the only other material that came close to touching it was the voice of the great outdoors e.p the music from the corner stuff is a bit to dark and moody for me, although wordsmith tried to get at him and chester put him down on a record brillitantly, just goes to show what happens when you battle a master.
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:45 pm
by signus
To be fair I know little to nothing about the roots and artists that started Dubstep but as for my roots in the genre, I heard it around this time last year in Leeds when I was out and didn't know what the hell it was but loved it. Then my mate's bro showed him some more and we went from there and I've loved every minute of it. Dubstep is king
Re: Dubstep Roots - What are yours? The debate...
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:50 pm
by seckle
Djslate wrote:In the light of some recent posts I was just curious when people started listening to dubstep. I have been listening to garage for the last 10 years and it has been a real joy to watch a nascent, burgeoning scene really come to fruition - from the dark 2-step tracks of EL-B and Oris Jay to the tracks of Skream and the entourage of dubstep producers today. It seems that already people are beginning to pigeonhole dubstep in order to provide some sort of exclusivity on the genre.
I don't want to get the age old 'I've been listening since the beginning' debate going again but it seems bizarre that a number of people voice criticism of Skream producing a 'garage' track on his new album, and that this is somehow shocking, or even wrong. If one were to take this argument to a logical/illogical conclusion it could be posited that current producers are deviating from the garage roots and making 'dubstep' tracks!!
That said, having experienced the negativity and divisive nature of some parts of the garage community it is a blessing that dubstep as a genre has such a loyal and dedicated community of listeners. The good vibes would be ruined if people get caught up in mindless discussions on how the genre should be rigid and exclude tracks based on one factor; BPM.
Don't get me wrong. I believe the distinction is there for a reason but it shouldn't be a question of 'them and us' rather a realisation that garage is inherently bound to dubstep and this doesn't mean the former should be discarded like an old shell.
I love dubstep, but I also love garage. A few people should start investigating the roots before placing rigid strictures on the genre and claiming sole rights to dubstep. There will be people who argue with minor points of language in this post but that avoids the issue. All the intelligent ones will fully gauge the sentiments rather thatn the rudiments of my imperfect grammar.
SLATE
big up. very well said. i've always maintained that without zed bias and wookie, there wouldn't be a scene to speak of right now. for me the 2step/ukg lines always blurred into one.
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:53 pm
by parson
i heard a little bit of dubstep here and there but it didn't click for me till i heard it on the big sound at Weight
Re: Dubstep Roots - What are yours? The debate...
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:14 pm
by joseph-j
Djslate wrote:garage is inherently bound to dubstep and this doesn't mean the former should be discarded like an old shell.
You know.
Re: Dubstep Roots - What are yours? The debate...
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:15 pm
by Rob H
Joseph-J wrote:
You know.
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:17 pm
by hera
ragga/ dnb
trip hop
dubstep
to this day i cant handle more than 5 minutes of garage.
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:21 pm
by billy blanks
Shonky wrote:but it does drop the funk for the weight on too many occassions
nice
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:26 pm
by tronman
listen to the way this man wrote basslines over 2step beat. early benga and skream basslines are all over wookie. i think the Manchu label really turned garage on its head, i was really taken back by it. like 'what the fuck is this?' before i heard Scrappy and Down On Me i was all about Ramsey & Fen and Dolally and all that. Wookie changed the direction for me as a DJ and i'm sure he did it for alot of others too.
Little Man....
also i think KMA's 'Blue Kards' was a very important tune at the time, and LockedOn were, to me, the most consistent garage label ever and really captured that 'sound of the pirates'.