Dubstepforum.com

Theory challenged question to follow:

How do you effectively use the minor scale?

I've heard it said that you have to know how to use the minor scale to produce that minor down sound. And I'd have to agree, case in point, A min vs. C maj. All the same notes, one is major, one is minor, only distinction being where the scale starts.

So how do you work the minor to make it sound minor?

Patterns using minors normally descend rather than ascend i do believe.

The thing that makes A minor different from C major is the intervals between the notes. If you start on A and go up the scale, A-B-C, A to C is a minor 3rd as opposed to C major which has a major 3rd (C to E). Also, A minor has a minor 6th, A to F, instead of C Major, which has a major 6th, C to A. The 3rd and the 6th are the tones that really give a minor key it's sound. Also, there are different types of minor scales, Natural Minor (half steps between 2 & 3 and between 5 & 6) Harmonic Minor (half steps between 2 &3, 5 &6, and between 7 & There is also Melodic Minor but that's a whole 'nother story! I usually just use the natural minor because it's the most simple one.

Hope this helps!

Well, of course adding the A in stead of the c as root is a start. Else than that, try to think tones that gives the minor scale a defined sound, which does not fit in the major scale. For example the #6 or the b5, and the tones included in an Am pentatonic scale. Also adding the major seventh instead of the minor, that is G# instead of G helps alot, especially if you also use a E7 instead of E-7 as it should be. It gives the dominant feeling which then, when going back to the A- gives a good feeling of the harmonic material you are using. I hope this makes sense. It's late, i ought to go to bed.
EDIT: as deranger says, mess around with the different types of minor scales, you'll find out they each works different. also if you want, have a look at church modes, they are effective too. (Ionic, Doric, Phrygian, Lydian etc...)

I would say it's actually the 3rd and the 7th that really give it it's sound. My jazz teacher used to tell me, you really only have to play the 3rd and 7ths to outline a chord, especially when the bass is holding down the root (I am a bass player btw). The 3rds and 7ths will tell you if you are in a Major, minor or dominant chord.

EZ

There's some good answers above this - Ima read those too

The quick basic answer: what chords and notes you use. Example Aminor -> Fmajor. Leave your right hand (pads) playing the notes of the a minor chord for the f major chord.

Z.

I was explaining this to somebody the other day actually.

I'll use A minor and C major since they're a great example. Basically to sound like you're playing in either one you need to establish tonality. You have to establish which key your in based on the notes you play.

If you're writing something in A minor (a,b,c,d,e,f,g,a) there's kind of a hierarchy in terms of value that each note has. The higher the notes value then the more it indicates what key your in. (Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense)

But the heirarchy usually goes, 1,5,4,6,3,2,7 (some people would say it's 1,5,4,6,2,3,7 - there's a fair amount of debate on it)

These are essentially notes that you should keep coming back to in that order.

So if you have a melody line you should try to make your last note A, if you can't do that you should try to make it the fifth, which here is e, if you can't do that, try to make it the fourth which is d, if that's not possible, go for f...etc

Basically the more you come back to A and use the more key defining notes and chords then the more sad your song will sound.

You've got to use pulls as well. (sorry don't know the technical term for this) but if you play the 4th of a scale it'll feel like it should move up to 5, it's important to let it to establish key, equally if you play the 5th it'll feel like going to 1, you should let it, to establish key, sometimes you can ignore the pulls but only if you feel you've established the key already. 7 has a great pull to 8, it's a really common one to use in melody lines.

Also, all chord sequences establish tonality in some way or another.

4-5-1 is the most powerful chord sequence for establishing tonality and letting people know what key you're in. 6-1-3 is good too. I think I've heard 6-2-5-1 being used pretty effectively to establish key too. Going from 4-1 is like a really really standard chord movement in dubstep. It's pretty good for establishing key too.

antics wrote:Patterns using minors normally descend rather than ascend i do believe.

It all depends on the feel you want to achieve. I've written and heard lots of minor songs that go up. I tend to try to make everything move in different directions. First thing I learned while doing theory was to never let every instrument move in the same direction. Piano teacher used to tell me off constantly for writing stuff that moved all in one direction, lol. She hated it. You can ignore this rule, but it's a good idea to not move everything in one direction. Moving everything in one direction sounds good, but it feels clunky and unwieldy sometimes.

Hope some of this helps.

Also, somebody said about playing the 7th, that works in jazz, but you'll have more difficulty utilizing the 7th as a chord in dubstep. Unless you're going for a dark sound or jazzy sound lol.

EDIT: should also say, all those rules are really just guidelines, if you feel your tonality is established and your song sounds sad, then you can ignore them but they're good tools for establishing tonality.

EDIT II: On pulls

7 pulls to 8
4-5
5-1
2-3

Those are the important ones, can't remember if I listed them all.

mks wrote:I would say it's actually the 3rd and the 7th that really give it it's sound. My jazz teacher used to tell me, you really only have to play the 3rd and 7ths to outline a chord, especially when the bass is holding down the root (I am a bass player btw). The 3rds and 7ths will tell you if you are in a Major, minor or dominant chord.

EZ

This is true, the third and seventh is all that is needen to put the chord into a harmonic context.

kaiori breathe wrote:I think I've heard 6-2-5-1 being used pretty effectively to establish key too. Going from 4-1 is like a really really standard chord movement in dubstep. It's pretty good for establishing key too.

This is a classic secondary dominant movement, def used in jazz all of the time. The 6 chord is the dominant chord to the 2, the 2 is the dominant chord to the 5 chord and the 5 chord is the dominant chord to the 1. You will find 2-5-1's used all of the time in jazz blues. Think of basic blues being 1-4-5 with the 4 being a temporary resting chord and then the 5th wanting to resolve to the 1. This will just expand the tension more and give you more harmonic options with the secondary dominant chords always wanting to resolve to their "root of the moment".

@ Nowaysj, sorry if we just blew this thread out of the water.

EZ

It's all a matter of phrasing and chord progressions. It's still tricky sometimes to imply a tonal center in a piece especially with key modulation. A lot of the jazz greats were very skilled at this.
Let's stick to A Minor/C Major here for simplicity's sake.
There's a few harmonic things you can do like playing a dominant chord over the 5th note of the minor scale(E,G#,B,D), technically it would belong to the harmonic minor scale as the 3rd of the dominant chord would be the leading tone in A harmonic (G#). Using that leading tone will usually imply a root on the note above it, so a G# will imply a tonal center of A. A G# diminished chord will do the same thing (it shares many of the tones of the E dominant chord)

As for progressions that will imply a minor sound, you have to know a bit about how chord progressions work. The Perfect Cadence is the most final of chord progressions which involves a dominant chord resolving downwards to a major triad. This is kind of related to the dominant resolution of the previous thing I mentioned except in that case we're resolving to the minor chord instead. It's still setting up that expectation to resolve down a 5th which is what makes it effective. Your ear expects that the chord a fifth below will be the final chord. Dominant chords can be very useful this way in setting up expectations for a smooth resolution (whether or not you actually do what the ear expects) This is where the circle of fifths comes from. A lot of jazz progressions involve back-cycling 5ths to arrive at a final destination.

Back to the perfect cadence, The chord built on the 5th degree of a scale produces that expectation of the tonic. Chords built on the 4th are also useful. 4th being the same as an inverted 5th, shares that same linkage with the tonic but doesn't have as much movement towards the tonic. In fact since the 4th (being an inverted 5th) is a 5th down from the root, the tonic chord will actually progress very well to this chord. The 12 bar blues progression is built (in its most basic form) around these three chords. The tonic chord progresses down a 5th/up a fourth (remember that's the same thing) to the chord on the 4th. This two chord progression repeats and then moves into the turnaround which uses a cadence very similar to the perfect cadence to move from the 5th back to the tonic. The 12 bar blues however usually uses all dominant chords which gives for a jazzier less diatonic harmony sound, but underlying progression relationships are still there.

Part of the reason the 5th and 4th link so well to the tonic is that they are in the middle of the scale. Following this, the next group of chords that provide motion are the next layer out from the middle, chords built upon the 6th and the 3rd (up one from the 5th, down one from the 4th) These move well because they have a relationship of thirds with the root note. The 5th and 4th chords move so well because they are either built upon the 5th of the scale (5th chord) or in the case of the 4th chord, have the root as its 5th (D,F,A if we're in A) Remember the fifth is the most powerful interval so this relationship gives these chords the most movement. With the 6 and 3 chords, they share a relationship of a 3rd/6th with the tonic (again these are just inversions, moving down a 3rd is the same as moving up a 6th and vice versa) Chords (at least most chords in traditional triadic harmony) are built on stacks of triads. The 3rd note of the chord built on the 6th degree is the tonic (F,A,C) and conversely the chord built upon the 3rd degree shares it's root and 3rd with the tonic chord.

The last group is the chords built on the 2nd and 7th degrees. These chords, since they are offset by a 2nd, do not share any notes with the tonic triad (the 7 would be included in a tonic 7th chord but this is not as important as the triad) As well their relationship with the tonic being a 2nd does not give that much harmonic information as the 2nd is a very small basic interval within the scale. As such these chords do not point back to the tonic as much as the others. However all these chords relate to each other not just the tonic, so 2nd and 7th chords would be use to resolve to a different chord which may then resolve to the tonic.

Basically using these relationships along with individual voice leading to pull chords in your progression is what will give your music its tonality (being major/minor or more specific or exotic tonalities)

I'm gonna stop here because that basically outlines the fundamentals of chord harmony and I don't want to put too much time into it without knowing if it's what you're looking for.
Again, sorry if you're gaping at your screen in amazement at the amount of theoretical blabber that I just dictated

Hope I can help somewhat



EDIT: Kaiori kinda beat me to it. Similar ideas going on here. Good to see there's some harmony buffs on the forum

Really great read

i'll definatley be taking a lot from this, cheers guys, this is what the production forum is all about

I would say it's actually the 3rd and the 7th that really give it it's sound. My jazz teacher used to tell me, you really only have to play the 3rd and 7ths to outline a chord, especially when the bass is holding down the root (I am a bass player btw). The 3rds and 7ths will tell you if you are in a Major, minor or dominant chord.

EZ

Yeah, I'm not sure why I didn't metion the 7th . You are right that generally in any 7th chord the 3rd and 7th is what gives the chord it's "color". The 6th however is also a "color" tone if you were going to play in the minor scale.

If you want to get really into it, you would raise the leading tone in the minor key so in A minor you would raise the G to a G#. Then you would have to use the Harmonic minor instead of the natural minor scale.

nowaysj wrote:Theory challenged question to follow:

How do you effectively use the minor scale?

I've heard it said that you have to know how to use the minor scale to produce that minor down sound. And I'd have to agree, case in point, A min vs. C maj. All the same notes, one is major, one is minor, only distinction being where the scale starts.

So how do you work the minor to make it sound minor?

hahah! there are a million ways to do it.

it doesn't really matter, just start playing and when it feels right, it's there. no more to it than that.

start listening to a lot of classical music if you want to hear how to 'properly' use the minor scale.
or just practice on your own and find what evokes those emotions that you want to get across.

SunkLo wrote:
As for progressions that will imply a minor sound, you have to know a bit about how chord progressions work. The Perfect Cadence is the most final of chord progressions which involves a dominant chord resolving downwards to a major triad. This is kind of related to the dominant resolution of the previous thing I mentioned except in that case we're resolving to the minor chord instead. It's still setting up that expectation to resolve down a 5th which is what makes it effective. Your ear expects that the chord a fifth below will be the final chord. Dominant chords can be very useful this way in setting up expectations for a smooth resolution (whether or not you actually do what the ear expects) This is where the circle of fifths comes from. A lot of jazz progressions involve back-cycling 5ths to arrive at a final destination.

Yes indeed. I had previously talked about this topic if you want to reference it:

http://www.dubstepforum.com/post1655945.html#p1655945

deranger wrote:

I would say it's actually the 3rd and the 7th that really give it it's sound. My jazz teacher used to tell me, you really only have to play the 3rd and 7ths to outline a chord, especially when the bass is holding down the root (I am a bass player btw). The 3rds and 7ths will tell you if you are in a Major, minor or dominant chord.

EZ

Yeah, I'm not sure why I didn't metion the 7th . You are right that generally in any 7th chord the 3rd and 7th is what gives the chord it's "color". The 6th however is also a "color" tone if you were going to play in the minor scale.

If you want to get really into it, you would raise the leading tone in the minor key so in A minor you would raise the G to a G#. Then you would have to use the Harmonic minor instead of the natural minor scale.

Those are great passing tones and in this case, in Amin, that G# is the leading tone. Playing upright bass in jazz bands I had to think about these passing tones and leading tones a lot, and trying to play the right notes on strong downbeats. As far as leading tones, with the upright bass being a fretless instrument, you could micro-tonally push those notes sharper to give them more of a drive to resolve.

And since we are on the subject of dominant cadential movement, another cool thing to think about is how 3rds and 7ths invert with each other. When you move cadentially down a 5th, what was your 3rd becomes your new 7th. So say we move from C to F, 5 to 1, that third of C which is E becomes the 7th of F.

Yeah man!

mks wrote: And since we are on the subject of dominant cadential movement, another cool thing to think about is how 3rds and 7ths invert with each other. When you move cadentially down a 5th, what was your 3rd becomes your new 7th. So say we move from C to F, 5 to 1, that third of C which is E becomes the 7th of F.

Yeah man!

This is where tritone inversion comes from, 7th becomes 3rd and vice versa. Gives you an alternate dominant chord to think about.
We need to make a jazz theory section, I love this shit

Also your comment on micro tonalities made me think about temperament which I've been researching a bit lately. Anyone working with alternate tuning systems in their tunes?
lol we're getting pretty far into longshot territory

SunkLo wrote:

mks wrote: And since we are on the subject of dominant cadential movement, another cool thing to think about is how 3rds and 7ths invert with each other. When you move cadentially down a 5th, what was your 3rd becomes your new 7th. So say we move from C to F, 5 to 1, that third of C which is E becomes the 7th of F.

Yeah man!

Also your comment on micro tonalities made me think about temperament which I've been researching a bit lately. Anyone working with alternate tuning systems in their tunes?
lol we're getting pretty far into longshot territory

Not as much of a long shot as you might think I spent 2 years studying pitch class set theory then applying it to other tuning systems. Fun stuff.

Nice one folks. Some really good explanations of chordal theory ( did I see V of V in there !!??!?!?).

Since dubstep is drums and bass, let's talk bass. Experiment w a bassline that's only the root, minor 3rd, minor 7th (play it below the root) and the octave above the root. Classic bassline across all genres, and a collectio of notes that will always sound heavy and exciting.

The 4th and 5th fill space, the 2nd and 6th imply a lot of motion, the 7th begs for resolve, but the 3rd is really the character-- use it!

Sharmaji wrote:Nice one folks. Some really good explanations of chordal theory ( did I see V of V in there !!??!?!?).

Never thought I'd see that on DSF lol, this thread made me smile with all the theory buffs, for a while I thought I was all alone.

damn i just pick a note... then figure out the chord... same with the next & so forth. if its good to the ear then its good, ya know. tweak tweak tweak!!!!!chea