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stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:49 am
by inspaise
alot of the time ive read that you "should" collapse your bass frequencies on your mix
but it seems thats only if your using poor stereo addition techniques and you wanna bring your bass back to the center after its been shifted considerbly more to one channel, there are a few big name plugins that only do just this one task, making your bass frequencies mono and rolling off into stereo at higher frequencies
my question is should you generally do this to all hard dancy dubstep music?
my tracks have a nice stereo spread all the way down to the lowest bass, they collapse just great to mono, and they sound ok with inverted and +90 deg phase tests,
so if my track can go mono with no problems is there any reason i should mono my bass frequencies? i definitly hear a difference when i start centering my bass, there IS stereo action going on there, but there general consensus i read everywhere is "MONO YOUR BASS" ....
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:53 am
by legend4ry
the mono sub thing only really matters when its vinyl, cause of how it cuts, if you ain't putting stuff out on vinyl go crazy with stereo field.
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:45 am
by dj instigate
ALWAYS keeps your sub mono
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:04 am
by symmetricalsounds
legend4ry wrote:the mono sub thing only really matters when its vinyl, cause of how it cuts, if you ain't putting stuff out on vinyl go crazy with stereo field.
isn't it also to do with how rigs are setup for bass to be in mono too?
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:13 am
by legend4ry
symmetricalsounds wrote:legend4ry wrote:the mono sub thing only really matters when its vinyl, cause of how it cuts, if you ain't putting stuff out on vinyl go crazy with stereo field.
isn't it also to do with how rigs are setup for bass to be in mono too?
Yeah but a mate who sound engineers for gigs told me, that most/all rigs subs are set to mono so along as you ain't got phase or your bass hard panned in left or right theres nothing to worry about.
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:50 am
by Depone
legend4ry wrote:symmetricalsounds wrote:legend4ry wrote:the mono sub thing only really matters when its vinyl, cause of how it cuts, if you ain't putting stuff out on vinyl go crazy with stereo field.
isn't it also to do with how rigs are setup for bass to be in mono too?
Yeah but a mate who sound engineers for gigs told me, that most/all rigs subs are set to mono so along as you ain't got phase or your bass hard panned in left or right theres nothing to worry about.
Also stereo sub bass at gigs isn't going to work, might work at home... But as we all know Sub bass is omni-directional
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:16 am
by samkablaam
Depone wrote:legend4ry wrote:symmetricalsounds wrote:legend4ry wrote:the mono sub thing only really matters when its vinyl, cause of how it cuts, if you ain't putting stuff out on vinyl go crazy with stereo field.
isn't it also to do with how rigs are setup for bass to be in mono too?
Yeah but a mate who sound engineers for gigs told me, that most/all rigs subs are set to mono so along as you ain't got phase or your bass hard panned in left or right theres nothing to worry about.
Also stereo sub bass at gigs isn't going to work, might work at home... But as we all know Sub bass is omni-directional
stereo sub bass works still. if there is a sub on the left of you, whether its omni or not, it will still sound like its coming from the left.
having said that, when do you ever, other than at a live music show, notice the panning of different tracks?
the bass mono thing is just to help then cutting needle stay on the record when its being made.
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:55 pm
by wirez
samkablaam wrote:when do you ever, other than at a live music show, notice the panning of different tracks?
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:29 pm
by SunkLo
hahah yeah really, I was like "did he just say that?"
To OP: if you collapsed it to mono and it sounds fine and still powerful then there's nothing that can go wrong as long as you're not cutting vinyl. As usual test it out on several systems to make sure that bit of stereo doesn't sound like shat in different scenarios.
inspaise wrote:so if my track can go mono with no problems is there any reason i should mono my bass frequencies? i definitly hear a difference when i start centering my bass...
You say it's fine in mono but you hear a difference? As long as you mean playing in mono doesn't subtract anything from the track other than the stereo feel, but it's nice to hear it in stereo when possible to add on that bit of extra.
I'd like to hear a track as an example as well as how you actually get stereo bass without it sounding weaker in mono. I think a bit of stereo delay would do fine as long as you tailored it to individual frequency bands and maybe reinforced it with some mono weight. Different timbral changes between each channel would give a stereo effect as well.
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:38 pm
by samkablaam
wirez wrote:samkablaam wrote:when do you ever, other than at a live music show, notice the panning of different tracks?
haha, oops.
meant to say... when you are out (at a club as opposed to live music), do you notice panning?
wow, feeling stupid right now.
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:59 pm
by wirez
samkablaam wrote:wirez wrote:samkablaam wrote:when do you ever, other than at a live music show, notice the panning of different tracks?
haha, oops.
meant to say... when you are out (at a club as opposed to live music), do you notice panning?
wow, feeling stupid right now.
Hehe, you probably wouldn't...
a.) Because alcohol is bound to fuck with your stereo perception
b.) Because club systems are likely to be mono
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:29 pm
by staticcast
wirez wrote:samkablaam wrote:wirez wrote:samkablaam wrote:when do you ever, other than at a live music show, notice the panning of different tracks?
haha, oops.
meant to say... when you are out (at a club as opposed to live music), do you notice panning?
wow, feeling stupid right now.
Hehe, you probably wouldn't...
a.) Because alcohol is bound to fuck with your stereo perception
b.) Because club systems are likely to be mono
Most club systems are stereo; some clubs run their subs in mono. Obviously it's not as noticeable as in a studio but you can definitely hear stereo content if the system's set up right for the room, etc.
The thing is, most dance music is 95% mono anyway; just look at the little timecode panel thing on Traktor or Serato when you're playing a normal (not timecode) record. 9 times out of 10 it'll be pretty much a diagonal line, ie same signal on L and R, ie mono.
You can't cut low frequencies to vinyl in stereo because the "side" component of the signal is cut vertically into the acetate, and the acetate layer is only so thick, whereas the mono component is cut laterally so you can get away with cutting as hot a signal as you like, the tradeoff being that the grooves have to be further apart so you can't fit as much material onto a side. If you're not cutting to vinyl you don't have to worry about this, but nonetheless there are several good reasons to keep your subs in stereo:
1) Any time you pan something, its level is increased in one channel (up to 6dB depending on your DAW) and decreased in the other. Since subs tend to have the highest amplitude-to-perceived-volume ratio, this eats up your headroom very quickly because all of a sudden in one channel your sub is 6dB louder than it was, and chances are it was already one of the highest-level instruments in your mix.
2) Following on from 1, this means the whole track has to be mastered quieter and you have to crank it up more in the DJ booth, risking hitting a limiter or maxing out the soundsystem
3) Low frequencies are much less directional than high frequencies, ie, humans have difficulty telling in which direction they're coming from. (Direction is inferred by the brain using phase differences at either ear, and low frequencies have such a long wavelength that it's hard for the brain to work out whether the wavefronts are hitting your left ear first or your right.) With this in mind, you don't get so much reward out of panning subs anyway.
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:16 pm
by wirez
static_cast wrote:wirez wrote:samkablaam wrote:wirez wrote:samkablaam wrote:when do you ever, other than at a live music show, notice the panning of different tracks?
haha, oops.
meant to say... when you are out (at a club as opposed to live music), do you notice panning?
wow, feeling stupid right now.
Hehe, you probably wouldn't...
a.) Because alcohol is bound to fuck with your stereo perception
b.) Because club systems are likely to be mono
Most club systems are stereo; some clubs run their subs in mono. Obviously it's not as noticeable as in a studio but you can definitely hear stereo content if the system's set up right for the room, etc.
The thing is, most dance music is 95% mono anyway; just look at the little timecode panel thing on Traktor or Serato when you're playing a normal (not timecode) record. 9 times out of 10 it'll be pretty much a diagonal line, ie same signal on L and R, ie mono.
You can't cut low frequencies to vinyl in stereo because the "side" component of the signal is cut vertically into the acetate, and the acetate layer is only so thick, whereas the mono component is cut laterally so you can get away with cutting as hot a signal as you like, the tradeoff being that the grooves have to be further apart so you can't fit as much material onto a side. If you're not cutting to vinyl you don't have to worry about this, but nonetheless there are several good reasons to keep your subs in
MONO:
1) Any time you pan something, its level is increased in one channel (up to 6dB depending on your DAW) and decreased in the other. Since subs tend to have the highest amplitude-to-perceived-volume ratio, this eats up your headroom very quickly because all of a sudden in one channel your sub is 6dB louder than it was, and chances are it was already one of the highest-level instruments in your mix.
2) Following on from 1, this means the whole track has to be mastered quieter and you have to crank it up more in the DJ booth, risking hitting a limiter or maxing out the soundsystem
3) Low frequencies are much less directional than high frequencies, ie, humans have difficulty telling in which direction they're coming from. (Direction is inferred by the brain using phase differences at either ear, and low frequencies have such a long wavelength that it's hard for the brain to work out whether the wavefronts are hitting your left ear first or your right.) With this in mind, you don't get so much reward out of panning subs anyway.
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:20 pm
by staticcast
Re: stereo mixing and bass frequencies
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:09 pm
by Depone
static_cast wrote:
Most club systems are stereo; some clubs run their subs in mono. Obviously it's not as noticeable as in a studio but you can definitely hear stereo content if the system's set up right for the room, etc.
The thing is, most dance music is 95% mono anyway; just look at the little timecode panel thing on Traktor or Serato when you're playing a normal (not timecode) record. 9 times out of 10 it'll be pretty much a diagonal line, ie same signal on L and R, ie mono.
You can't cut low frequencies to vinyl in stereo because the "side" component of the signal is cut vertically into the acetate, and the acetate layer is only so thick, whereas the mono component is cut laterally so you can get away with cutting as hot a signal as you like, the tradeoff being that the grooves have to be further apart so you can't fit as much material onto a side. If you're not cutting to vinyl you don't have to worry about this, but nonetheless there are several good reasons to keep your subs in MONO:
1) Any time you pan something, its level is increased in one channel (up to 6dB depending on your DAW) and decreased in the other. Since subs tend to have the highest amplitude-to-perceived-volume ratio, this eats up your headroom very quickly because all of a sudden in one channel your sub is 6dB louder than it was, and chances are it was already one of the highest-level instruments in your mix.
2) Following on from 1, this means the whole track has to be mastered quieter and you have to crank it up more in the DJ booth, risking hitting a limiter or maxing out the soundsystem
3) Low frequencies are much less directional than high frequencies, ie, humans have difficulty telling in which direction they're coming from. (Direction is inferred by the brain using phase differences at either ear, and low frequencies have such a long wavelength that it's hard for the brain to work out whether the wavefronts are hitting your left ear first or your right.) With this in mind, you don't get so much reward out of panning subs anyway.
Not only does stereo sub bas, ie panned (on vinyl) create larger grooves, the needle will probably pop out the groove faster then you can say... stereo sub. Even with the counterweight off!
